Romulan Ranks

[Arpy]

Anyone know a good resource for Romulan ranks? There's always Memory Alpha for a thorough look at canon ranks such as they are, but I'm thinking more behind the scenes, historical Roman information, or creative fan fiction.

For me they go something like:

Admiral -- Admiral
Commodore -- Commodore
Commander -- Captain
Subcommander -- Commander
Centurion -- Lt. Commander
Lieutenant -- Lieutenant
Sublieutenant -- Lt. Junior Grade
Uhlan -- Ensign

It's a little too cute both sets of ranks matching up just so, though. I wonder if there are others in there as well...Decurions, Primuses, Tribunes, Prefects, Legates, and the like.

And what are the different flag ranks -- Admiral, Vice-Admiral, Subadmiral, Commodore? Maybe Navarch or Fleet Commander in lieu of a Fleet Captain?

Tal Shiar ranks are harder, assuming there are separate Tal Shiar ranks. They seem to go by Army ranks -- Colonel, Major. What about something like:

General -- General
Vice General -- Lieutanent General
Subgeneral -- Major General
Vice Subgeneral -- Brigadier General
Colonel -- Colonel
Subcolonel -- Lt. Colonel
Major -- Major
Captian -- Captain
Lieutenant -- First Lieutenant
Sublieutenant -- Second Lieutenant

...though I don't like the term captain for the Romulan world, and it's confusing enough in the real one the way it's wildly different things in different branches of the military.

Anyone want to take a stab at enlisted personnel? Are there enlisted personnel in the Romulan fleet?

 

[FederationHistorian]

This works for me.

Romulan ranks

The Romulan rank system is based on a long history of ranks ranging from the old settlement era on Romulus, to the early days of space exploration with the Romulan Star Empire. TOS episode & Star Trek 1 novelization: Balance of Terror TOS episode & Star Trek 4 novelization: The Enterprise...

memory-beta.fandom.com

As does this,

Ranks of the Roman Army

Ranks of the Roman Army The Roman army boasted a hierarchical structure comprising various ranks that played crucial roles in the organization, command, and functionality of the military. From the …

digitalmapsoftheancientworld.com

 

[Arpy]

I made a some changes to the officer ranks and took a pass at enlisted ones.

Enlisted (brace yourselves, SPQR):

Tiro — Seaman Recruit (E-1)
Subairman — Seaman Apprentice (E-2)
*Airman — Seaman (E-3)
Cornicen — Petty Officer Third Class (E-4)
Signifer — Petty Officer Second Class (E-5)
Aquilifer — Petty Officer First Class (E-6)
Suboptio — Chief Petty Officer (E-7)
Optio — Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8)
Overoptio — Master Chief Petty Officer (E-9)

*This would be a Miles (I’m guessing pronounced MEE-less), but it could be confusing to look at. Also considered for the rank were Legionary and Soldier.​

I think airman might be interesting if we consider that Vulcan had few bodies of water, so they might have developed an air-force earlier and more significantly than a navy—a term they might have adopted more for space than for sea. Eh, just trying it out.​

Officer:

Uhlan — Ensign (O-1)
Sublieutenant — Lt. Junior Grade (O-2)
Lieutenant — Lieutenant (O-3)
Centurion — Lt. Commander (O-4)
Subcommander — Commander (O-5)
Commander — Captain (O-6)
Navarch — Commodore (O-7)
Subadmiral — Rear Admiral (O-8)
Vice Admiral — Vice Admiral (O-9)
Admiral — Admiral (O-10)
Imperator — Admiral of the Fleet (Special Grade)


Tal Shiar Enlisted:

Subprivate — Private (E-1)
Private — Private (E-2)
Subcorporal — Private First Class (E-3)
Corporal — Corporal (E-4)
Subsargeant — Sergeant (E-5)
Antesergeant — Staff Sergeant (E-6)
Sergeant — Sergeant First Class (E-7)
Oversergeant — Master Sergeant (E-8)
Decurian — Sergeant Major (E-9)

Tal Shiar Officer:

Sublieutenant — Second Lieutenant (O-1)
Lieutenant — First Lieutenant (O-2)
Submajor — Captain (O-3)
Major — Major (O-4)
Subcolonel — Lt. Colonel (O-5)
Colonel — Colonel (O-6)
Tribune — Brigadier General (O-7)
Subgeneral — Major General (O-8)
Vice General -- Lieutanent General (O-9)
General — General (O-10)
Magister — General of the Army (Special Grade)

 

[Arpy]

How do the Tal Shiar work? Would these be their official ranks or ones adopted shipboard? Are there even Tal Shiar enlisted ranks—maybe for those that didn’t go to the Imperial Intelligence Academy mentioned in “Face of the Enemy” or something? I mean, wouldn’t most Tal Shiar be analysts sitting in offices most of the day?

 

[Arpy]

Anyone have any alternate rank ideas?

(Moderator, would you please move to Trek Tech Forum? Thanks. )

 

[NCC-73515]

One rank in the Zhat Vash subsection of the Tal Shiar: Cheeky Fecker

 

[1001001]

Moving at the OP’s request.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

How does Ranks fit in with Trek Tech?

Shouldn't there be a "In-Universe Lore" section?

 

[Arpy]

How does Ranks fit in with Trek Tech?

Shouldn't there be a "In-Universe Lore" section?

There isn't a "lore" section and I figured my fellow uber nerds here might make a better meal of the subject than the more casual fans in General Trek.

Have any additional new or unusual ranks been mentioned in Trek since last year -- Romulan or otherwise?

Any thoughts on how you'd do Romulan ranks or on the ones I posted?

One thing about Trek aliens is that they are so human-like aren't they? Centurians and Lieutenants everywhere. I wonder if there's a way to play around with some of these to make them more alien. I don't mean adding more apostrophes (though maybe lol) but with playing with alien hierarchical structure.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Have any additional new or unusual ranks been mentioned in Trek since last year -- Romulan or otherwise?

Not to my memory.

Any thoughts on how you'd do Romulan ranks or on the ones I posted?

I care more about UFP / StarFleet ranks & how I'd re-structure the ranks within StarFleet along with having matching ranks in the various services.

Yes, in my Head Cannon, there are multiple services, all with the same rank structure for simplicity.

One thing about Trek aliens is that they are so human-like aren't they?

We do all come from a similar template.

Centurians and Lieutenants everywhere. I wonder if there's a way to play around with some of these to make them more alien. I don't mean adding more apostrophes (though maybe lol) but with playing with alien hierarchical structure.

You can have them use the Dominion Jem'Hadar style rank structure.

That's way different than what we have.

Or use a military structure that is alien to what we have on Earth.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Anyone want to take a stab at enlisted personnel? Are there enlisted personnel in the Romulan fleet?

While it's understandable that the uhlan is assumed to be an officer rank, this is fairly unlikely given that the historical term essentially refers to (ir)regular cavalry*, particularly those armed with lances, which as a group would mostly be enlisted soldiers unless otherwise stated.

* and therefore is being used more along the lines of how we use "marine", "commando" or similar for hypothetical Federation combat arms personnel.

 

[BK613]

Not very keen on Centurion being a typical officer rank, given that historically centurions came up through the soldier ranks and had titles like First Spear. Seems ripe for use as a warrant officer type rank though.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Not very keen on Centurion being a typical officer rank

You do realise that Mustang officers are a thing right?

Seems ripe for use as a warrant officer type rank though.

In one sense, yes, though IMO the Immunes (technical specialists absented from typical military tasks on deployment) are a better fit for the most part.

The First Javelin/First Spear is the equivalent of a modern battalion commander (in addition to dual-hatting as the commander of the most senior "company", which seems a little high for a warrant officer rather than a (mustang) commissioned officer.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Do Romulans have a seperate Officer ranks / Enlisted ranks?

From everything I can tell, it's all one unified rank system.

Especially in the future, I never liked the seperation of Officer / Enlisted ranks.

That's something I'm firmly against and want to become fully integrated.

 

[Vagabond Elf]

Not my area of expertise, but my understanding is that a Roman Centurion was essentially a Serjeant-Major, and the First Spear Centurion was the equivalent of the RSM in a Commonwealth regiment. However, for my psuedo-Roman 40K army I use Centurion as a company commander as well.

I use Auxillio instead of Lieutenant. Both words essentially mean "assistant" but this dodges the familiarity.

For "Over"-whatevers, such as your "Overoptio," I use Majorus. So instead of Overoptio, it would be Optio Majorus. It's not very good Latin, but it works. The Company Serjeant-Major equivalent is the Optio Primus. You could also use "Supraoptio," which is just "over-optio" in Latin. Having the English "Over" in there is just immersion breaking, to me.

For the rank below Optio I use Monitor. For the rank-and-file, I use Milites. This is an older version of "Miles" and means the same thing. You could also go over to French and use Soldat.

"Signifier" is a specialist title, and not an actual rank in Roman usage. It's like "Commodore" - until very recently, "Commodore" was a job, not a rank, and meant a Post-Captain who had been placed in command of a squadron. "Aquilifer" is as well. I'd use these as Technical Specialists and not people standing in the actual chain of command.

I also strip out a bunch of layers, but that's partly to suggest a less refined society. So my ranks go:

Tiro (a recruit, not done training)
Milites (rank and file)
Milites Majorus (specialist like a designated marksman or a SAW gunner)
Monitor (section leader)
Optio (squad leader)
Optio Majorus (Platoon Serjeant-Major)
Optio Priums (CSM or RSM)
Auxilio (Platoon Leader)
Centurion (Company Leader).

I've not yet needed a rank above Centurion for what I do, so I haven't settled on anything yet.

Signifier is a radio operator. Medicus is a Medic. Again, I don't need other specialists so I don't have names for them. Both of these positions have authority equivalent to an Optio when directly relevant to their specialty, and authority equivalent to a Milites for everything else, although in practical terms when a Signifier or Medicus says "go do this" most troopies do, since they tend to have a lot of experience and carry moral weight. (Also, when the Signifier says "go do this" it's usually assumed to be a relay from higher authority.)

Anyway, not directly on point for you but might give you some ideas.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Do Romulans have a seperate Officer ranks / Enlisted ranks?

Only above the "maniple"/"cohort" level and above (roughly a modern battalion).

Centurions and below were as a rule what would considered Mustangs (promoted from the ranks)

Not my area of expertise, but my understanding is that a Roman Centurion was essentially a Serjeant-Major,

No, that would be the Optio, more specifically the optio centuriae or optio centurionis.

and the First Spear Centurion was the equivalent of the RSM in a Commonwealth regiment. However, for my psuedo-Roman 40K army I use Centurion as a company commander as well.

The RSM equivalent would probably be the praefectus castrorum (camp prefect or quartermaster, the senior "Mustang" officer in most legions and its second officer. Almost always a former prime centurion.

I use Auxillio instead of Lieutenant. Both words essentially mean "assistant" but this dodges the familiarity.

I certainly wouldn't use Lieutenant.

Auxillo (or more likely centurio auxilio or optio auxilio) seems more like a replacement for Decurion, the commander of cavalry and auxiliary turma (roughly a modern platoon) to avoid confusion with the Decanus.

I'd prefer optio principalis/es, the rank of supervisory rather than administrate optios.

"Signifier" is a specialist title, and not an actual rank in Roman usage.

Actually, it sorta was. They were "double pay" soldiers and had special duties (they were the unit treasurer/purser).

The more senior and related aquilifer was generally held to be roughly between an optio and a centurion (or roughly equivalent of a Decurion).

Tiro (a recruit, not done training)

Seems reasonable.

Milites (rank and file)
Milites Majorus (specialist like a designated marksman or a SAW gunner)

These are probably the same rank.

Monitor (section leader)
Optio (squad leader)

These would be generally be the "decanus" (leader of ten)

Optio Majorus (Platoon Serjeant-Major)
Optio Priums (CSM or RSM)

Closest to a PSM would probably be the cavalry principales (equivalent of the tessaranus ("watch commander") or an optio depending on pay) as the infantry didn't have formal platoons.

Optio Primus/principalis (the second in command of the "company") is probably the closest to a modern CSM as while it's not a great fit, the fact that all junior officers were "former enlisted" means that there is less need for senior NCOs.

I've not yet needed a rank above Centurion for what I do, so I haven't settled on anything yet.

Historically, that would have been Centurion Primus Pilius (Chief or First Centurion/First Spear), then the praefectus castrorum or camp prefect (Battalion SM/RSM).

Signifier is a radio operator.

A valid notion, though historically they were the Quartermaster/Storesman.

Medicus is a Medic.

Absolutely.

Both of these positions have authority equivalent to an Optio when directly relevant to their specialty, and authority equivalent to a Milites for everything else, although in practical terms when a Signifier or Medicus says "go do this" most troopies do

Basically, yeah at least the ones that parallel historical usage. Higher ranked versions might appear over time.

 

[Arpy]

I care more about UFP / StarFleet ranks & how I'd re-structure the ranks within StarFleet along with having matching ranks in the various services.

Okay? Welcome to the thread.

We do all come from a similar template.

Humbug. They’re aliens. Earth ranks don’t match 1:1, I doubt extra terrestrial ones will either.

And they’re boring if they do.

Or use a military structure that is alien to what we have on Earth.

Yeah, I’m going to think about that further. Both in their titles and in their general concepts of responsibility and organization.

While it's understandable that the uhlan is assumed to be an officer rank, this is fairly unlikely given that the historical term essentially refers to (ir)regular cavalry*, particularly those armed with lances, which as a group would mostly be enlisted soldiers unless otherwise stated.

* and therefore is being used more along the lines of how we use "marine", "commando" or similar for hypothetical Federation combat arms personnel.

That he’s an admiral I’m guessing he started out as an officer rather than going to school later. I’m thinking it’s a bit of futurism. There’s no infantry in a world of antigravs. A “hover-cavalryman” or uhlan is where Romulan officers begin.

Not very keen on Centurion being a typical officer rank, given that historically centurions came up through the soldier ranks and had titles like First Spear. Seems ripe for use as a warrant officer type rank though.

I’m going by the Romulan Commander calling his second a Centurion. I could go either way but I do like it.

You do realise that Mustang officers are a thing right?



In one sense, yes, though IMO the Immunes (technical specialists absented from typical military tasks on deployment) are a better fit for the most part.

The First Javelin/First Spear is the equivalent of a modern battalion commander (in addition to dual-hatting as the commander of the most senior "company", which seems a little high for a warrant officer rather than a (mustang) commissioned officer.

Part of putting the ranks together is how they sound to American/English speaking ears. Mustang and Javelin don’t work for me, anyway. Spear might.

Do Romulans have a seperate Officer ranks / Enlisted ranks?

From everything I can tell, it's all one unified rank system.

Especially in the future, I never liked the seperation of Officer / Enlisted ranks.

That's something I'm firmly against and want to become fully integrated.

I could go either way with this. I really don’t like enlisted ranks is Starfleet. It’s not just the US military In Space!!! for me but an evolved futuristic organization of warrior scientists.

Indeed, the more I look at our geopolitics the more I think any standing military is fundamentally problematic. It wants to be used — from within or without — and will find ways to be, regardless is war has been declared, legal, or just.

Not my area of expertise, but my understanding is that a Roman Centurion was essentially a Serjeant-Major, and the First Spear Centurion was the equivalent of the RSM in a Commonwealth regiment. However, for my psuedo-Roman 40K army I use Centurion as a company commander as well.

I use Auxillio instead of Lieutenant. Both words essentially mean "assistant" but this dodges the familiarity.

For "Over"-whatevers, such as your "Overoptio," I use Majorus. So instead of Overoptio, it would be Optio Majorus. It's not very good Latin, but it works. The Company Serjeant-Major equivalent is the Optio Primus. You could also use "Supraoptio," which is just "over-optio" in Latin. Having the English "Over" in there is just immersion breaking, to me.

For the rank below Optio I use Monitor. For the rank-and-file, I use Milites. This is an older version of "Miles" and means the same thing. You could also go over to French and use Soldat.

"Signifier" is a specialist title, and not an actual rank in Roman usage. It's like "Commodore" - until very recently, "Commodore" was a job, not a rank, and meant a Post-Captain who had been placed in command of a squadron. "Aquilifer" is as well. I'd use these as Technical Specialists and not people standing in the actual chain of command.

I also strip out a bunch of layers, but that's partly to suggest a less refined society. So my ranks go:

Tiro (a recruit, not done training)
Milites (rank and file)
Milites Majorus (specialist like a designated marksman or a SAW gunner)
Monitor (section leader)
Optio (squad leader)
Optio Majorus (Platoon Serjeant-Major)
Optio Priums (CSM or RSM)
Auxilio (Platoon Leader)
Centurion (Company Leader).

I've not yet needed a rank above Centurion for what I do, so I haven't settled on anything yet.

Signifier is a radio operator. Medicus is a Medic. Again, I don't need other specialists so I don't have names for them. Both of these positions have authority equivalent to an Optio when directly relevant to their specialty, and authority equivalent to a Milites for everything else, although in practical terms when a Signifier or Medicus says "go do this" most troopies do, since they tend to have a lot of experience and carry moral weight. (Also, when the Signifier says "go do this" it's usually assumed to be a relay from higher authority.)

Anyway, not directly on point for you but might give you some ideas.

Only above the "maniple"/"cohort" level and above (roughly a modern battalion).

Centurions and below were as a rule what would considered Mustangs (promoted from the ranks)


No, that would be the Optio, more specifically the optio centuriae or optio centurionis.


The RSM equivalent would probably be the praefectus castrorum (camp prefect or quartermaster, the senior "Mustang" officer in most legions and its second officer. Almost always a former prime centurion.



I certainly wouldn't use Lieutenant.

Auxillo (or more likely centurio auxilio or optio auxilio) seems more like a replacement for Decurion, the commander of cavalry and auxiliary turma (roughly a modern platoon) to avoid confusion with the Decanus.

I'd prefer optio principalis/es, the rank of supervisory rather than administrate optios.


Actually, it sorta was. They were "double pay" soldiers and had special duties (they were the unit treasurer/purser).

The more senior and related aquilifer was generally held to be roughly between an optio and a centurion (or roughly equivalent of a Decurion).



Seems reasonable.


These are probably the same rank.


These would be generally be the "decanus" (leader of ten)


Closest to a PSM would probably be the cavalry principales (equivalent of the tessaranus ("watch commander") or an optio depending on pay) as the infantry didn't have formal platoons.

Optio Primus/principalis (the second in command of the "company") is probably the closest to a modern CSM as while it's not a great fit, the fact that all junior officers were "former enlisted" means that there is less need for senior NCOs.


Historically, that would have been Centurion Primus Pilius (Chief or First Centurion/First Spear), then the praefectus castrorum or camp prefect (Battalion SM/RSM).



A valid notion, though historically they were the Quartermaster/Storesman.



Absolutely.



Basically, yeah at least the ones that parallel historical usage. Higher ranked versions might appear over time.

Interesting!

I used “over” in place of “super” again for how it sounds to American/English speaking ears.

I also made a point of not using too many Roman ranks as they don’t sync with those in the canon and I tried to muddy the ones I did use so that they both gel with what we’ve seen and look like they evolved together over millennia of Romulan history—let alone Vulcan.

I think they turned out a rich and tantalizing collection that I kinda like.

But I love the continuing discussion on Roman ones as it further informs how I might do Romulan ones later.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Humbug. They’re aliens. Earth ranks don’t match 1:1, I doubt extra terrestrial ones will either.

And they’re boring if they do.

I was refering to the Bi-Pedal Humanoid form that most Aliens take.

Not necessarilly the rank system.

Yeah, I’m going to think about that further. Both in their titles and in their general concepts of responsibility and organization.

Don't forget the Hierarchy order and how things are organized / structured.

I could go either way with this. I really don’t like enlisted ranks is Starfleet. It’s not just the US military In Space!!! for me but an evolved futuristic organization of warrior scientists.

I just don't like the mess that having 2x sets of ranks along with the Officer/Enlisted divide shows.

For the vast majority of the times, we see "StarFleet Officers". I think we need to standardize on that concept.

Indeed, the more I look at our geopolitics the more I think any standing military is fundamentally problematic.

I see it as more of a practical requirement.
In the old days, you would conscript people to fight, even if they didn't want to.
That was far more problematic.

Compared to a voluntary standing Military, ready to do it's job.

The main problem are the politicians who run the civilian government and treat everything problem like a Military Solution.
Especially if they have certain outside interests.

It wants to be used — from within or without — and will find ways to be, regardless is war has been declared, legal, or just.

That's a Civilian Government / Leadership issue.
The fact that they can't seem to resolve the issue w/o calling upon the military shows how little they understand things or lack the ability to negotiate or willing-ness to negotiate.

If the other party acts in bad faith, then I can understand the use of military force.

 

[Vagabond Elf]

Vagabond Elf said:
"Signifier" is a specialist title, and not an actual rank in Roman usage.

Actually, it sorta was. They were "double pay" soldiers and had special duties (they were the unit treasurer/purser).

And a Commodore got extra pay, extra prize money, the right to wear a Rear-Admiral's jacket, and other priviledges - but it still wasn't a rank, it was a job. Or a WW2 American Technical Sergeant, who got extra money and senior NCO priviledges, and had special duties, but wasn't in the chain of command. That's the difference between a Rank and an Appointment or Position - again, to the limits of my understanding. I'm well aware I might be standing on Mount Stupid here.

I used “over” in place of “super” again for how it sounds to American/English speaking ears.

I also made a point of not using too many Roman ranks as they don’t sync with those in the canon and I tried to muddy the ones I did use so that they both gel with what we’ve seen and look like they evolved together over millennia of Romulan history—let alone Vulcan.

Spura, not super. I mean, yes, in modern English all the super- this and super- that comes from supra, but for this purpose I'd use the older one.

"Over" whatever is not a normal English construction, most of the time, so to me it sounds like mispronounced German. I say as an Anglo-Canadian. We don't say "Oversergeant," we say "Sergeant Major." We don't say "Overlieutenant," we say "Lieutenant First Class." There are places where we use "over" as a prefix in words or phrases like overlook, over-exaggerate, overkill, but these are all verbs, a few of which have been retconned into nouns. And of course the mixing of latinate and english words just sounds even messier.

So, yeah - two points of data are not a trend, of course, but if I heard "Overoptio" or even "Overserjeant" on TV, it would knock me right out of the story. A comment I offer as feedback, though, not as a "you should do it the way I like it."

I hear your point about not wanting to overdo the Roman terminology, though.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

And a Commodore got extra pay, extra prize money, the right to wear a Rear-Admiral's jacket, and other priviledges - but it still wasn't a rank, it was a job.

In the sense that a Commodore would have traditionally retired as a Captain rather than Commodore (no longer true at least for the Royal Navy), but Commodores have always outranked Captains within the same chain-of-command.

Or a WW2 American Technical Sergeant, who got extra money and senior NCO priviledges, and had special duties, but wasn't in the chain of command.

Not the combat chain of command, no as the rank mostly wasn't used there until it became the platoon 2-i-C rank in '44 and was replaced by Sergeant First Class in '48, but they still had full NCO authority within the logistics and support MOS that it was used.