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Romulan BOP vs Enterprise size comparison?

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EEE

Captain
Captain
Are there any technical/official drawings comparing the size of the Romulan Bird of Prey against the Enterprise? (heck, are there any _official_ size stats for the BOP?)

As I recall, there was an official comparison between the Enterprise and a Klingon D7 in the Roddenberry/Whitfield-Making of book, but I can't get a handle on how big the Bird of Prey was.

To put this in context, I'm trying to determine which Star Fleet Battles miniature best represents the Bird of Prey to scale (yes, the manufacturers think one thing, but my gut always saw the BOP as a smaller ship).
 
If you want to take Michael McMaster’s 1977 blueprints as canon, the Romulan BOP measures about 66 meters (216.5 feet) long and 90 meters (295 feet) wide overall. That makes it a rather small ship compared to the TOS Enterprise.
 
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Reindeer Wrangler said:
If you want to take Michael McMasters’ 1977 blueprints as canon, the Romulan BOP measures about 66 meters (216.5 feet) long and 90 meters (295 feet) wide overall. That makes it a rather small ship compared to the TOS Enterprise.
Click to expand...


Which makes sense seeing as how the BOPs were designed for short, punctuated flights of battle and smaller warrior-crews as oppose to starships like the Enterprise who were designed for longer stretches and to hold a bigger crew of various specialists and technicians.
 
That makes more sense than what I'm seeing in the miniatures. By those stats, it places the whole ship width, including nacelles as roughly 2/3rds of the Enterprise saucer section. Which better matches my 40+ years impressions.
 
EEE- I am really glad you brought this issue up, as it something I have always been uncomfortable with since AMT first put out their so-called 1/650 scale model of the BOP, to go with their ENT and KLING starships - which even to my 10 year old eye, seemed horribly out of scale.

As Reindeer Wrangler pointed out, the McMaster print offers-at least in my personal opinion-the most satisfying rendering of what actually constitutes the probable concept of the BOP.

Two things which I feel support the idea that the BOP is a VERY SMALL ship in comparison to a Constitution Class Starship:

1. Note in the episode 'BALANCE OF TERROR', the height of the deck we see is much shorter than that of the decks we see on the Enterprise-therefor the overall heights of say 5 decks on the BOP would be less high than 5 Enterprise deck heights.

2. The original premise on which the episode is based is a translation of the classic WWII, 'Destroyer vs. Submarine'; well if one considers the largest Destroyer at the time, and the smallest submarine which could be retro-fitted to house a 'super torpedo', I think that would be a good way to estimate a more accurate feel to the relative size of these two vessels.

On a personal note: In gaming, I have found that the models of the BOP which AMT put forth in the small 'Three ship' set is a better fit along the new 1/1000th scale Enterprise and Kilgon D7.

One word of advice would be to get the McMaster profile, and then scale the ship BY YOUR EYE to that of say the Franz Joseph profile, and therein create your own chart.

If you make one, post it please!
 
Captain Tracy said:
If you make one, post it please!
Click to expand...

You've hit the nail on the head as far as my personal impressions of the size, since seeing the Balance of Terror in it's first run. It's a submarine! Compare a submarine to even a destroyer! *grin*

The miniatures I'm looking at are for Star Fleet Battles (SFB)/Federation Commander and are pre-made in pewter.

Take a look at the miniatures I'm looking at by looking up Star Fleet Battles site and go to their "store." From the above, I've come to the conclusion that the BOP is best approximated by what they call a "Snipe." (in their universe, the Snipe is basically a huge fighter).

(as an aside, their pictures are often game fan-painted with some color schemes I find horrific *grin*)

I was unaware of the McMaster's blueprints until this thread, but easily find them online. And taking those measurements as compared to Franz Joseph's Enterprise measurements, and it just "feels" right (shame McMaster's died at 25 years old in '78, as I gather he had some talent!).

I think that SFB site/game considers the BOP's body (only) to be just under the diameter of the Enterprise's saucer. While that matches a story that mentions the cutting of a whole section from the script of the BOP's body being based on the Constitution class saucer blueprints (and thus sets up the episode's worry about spies being on board), would match that company's ideas, it doesn't look/feel right.
 
EEE- Right I know the SFB BOPs, as I have them in my collection for years, right along side my old Gamescience Cruisers, et al.

Yes, McMaster was a really talented guy, he and Shane Johnson are some of my favorite TREK and Sci-Fi blueprint guys.

To me, and this is just by 'my eye', I would think the entire BOP could fit in the space of the upper saucer section, including its nacells,... but that is just my 'feel'.

Listen, if you make a comparison chart from the two sources, would you please post it for everyone,... as I too would be very interested to see how many others of us think the 'commercial scale' is way off the intended scale.

Thanks
 
Captain Tracy said:
To me, and this is just by 'my eye', I would think the entire BOP could fit in the space of the upper saucer section, including its nacells,... but that is just my 'feel'.
Click to expand...

Not sure about height-wise, but all other dimensions would fit with no problem... BOP 90 meters wide, Enterprise saucer 127 meters wide. (I don't speak meters, but can I can round to very roughly 2/3rds *grin*)

There wasn't any BOP for SFB when I gave away all my SFB gear in the mid to late 80's, so this issue never arose for me until now, when I bought a semi-large lot off of Ferengi-Bay.

But thanks to this thread, I'm going with the ADB "Snipe" as a BOP against my Gamescience Connies. (not sure what I'm going to do with the other Rom Mini's! *grin*)
 
Size comparison:

69enterprise_romulan_siz.jpg
 
Sweet, but how does it look from the side view in terms of the comparative hull depths,.. saucer to saucer, so to speak?
 
Jeez, do I have to do everything around here? :p

58enterprise_romulan_pro.jpg


The McMaster plans have the main hull three decks high, and it’s a tight fit, even with the lower ceilings of Romulan ships (again, the analogy to the cramped quarters of a World War II submarine).
 
REINDEER WANGLER - You are 'DA MAN',... and see how MIGHTY the Enterprise looks in comparison,... and now, at least to my eye, it actually looks like: Destroyer vs. Sub,... oh those sneaky Romulans,.. got to love 'em!

Thanks R.M.!
 
INSERT - SHIP'S VIEWING SCREEN



The attacking vessel can now be seen definitely to be some modified version of a starship saucer main section... but with the dark markings on its underside which suggests a bird-of-prey with half-spread wings. And centered there is a threatening-looking "weapon tube" device. We see it in full size only momentarily... then it launches a torpedo-like bolt of blinding energy from the weapons tube.
​
HANSON'S VOICE

You see it, Enterprise?! Starship

design. Warn Earth... 

(STATIC CRACKLE)

... espionage, stolen our designs... traitors...
​

Balance of Terror shooting script
Click to expand...
That matches the design of the model, with its saucer-like shape and even a teardrop superstructure similar to the Enterprise. The rows of windows on it also belie that its hull was intended to be of similar dimensions to the Enterprise's saucer.
 
Maurice Navidad said:
INSERT - SHIP'S VIEWING SCREEN



The attacking vessel can now be seen definitely to be some modified version of a starship saucer main section... but with the dark markings on its underside which suggests a bird-of-prey with half-spread wings. And centered there is a threatening-looking "weapon tube" device. We see it in full size only momentarily... then it launches a torpedo-like bolt of blinding energy from the weapons tube.
​
HANSON'S VOICE

You see it, Enterprise?! Starship

design. Warn Earth... 

(STATIC CRACKLE)

... espionage, stolen our designs... traitors...
​

Balance of Terror shooting script
Click to expand...
That matches the design of the model, with its saucer-like shape and even a teardrop superstructure similar to the Enterprise. The rows of windows on it also belie that its hull was intended to be of similar dimensions to the Enterprise's saucer.
Click to expand...
Fascinating. It's a shame Enterprise put the Romulans in similar (although green) Bird-of-Prey ships in "Minefield" rather than building on this concept. The "warp delta" design seen in "The Expanse" would have made a good Starfleet/BoP progenitor.
 
Reindeer Wrangler said:
Jeez, do I have to do everything around here? :p

58enterprise_romulan_pro.jpg


The McMaster plans have the main hull three decks high, and it’s a tight fit, even with the lower ceilings of Romulan ships (again, the analogy to the cramped quarters of a World War II submarine).
Click to expand...

How many decks are in the Enterprise rim? :confused:
 
^^^Two. The ways the "windows" are on the Romulan ship they wouldn't line up with even 8-foot decks at at that scale.
 
Where/when is that original Romulan ship called a BoP? I call it a warbird, which I know is from SFB. Isn't a BoP the Klingonesque design first seen in TVH?

But then I'm unfamiliar with ENT, so maybe they changed things?

Thanks.
 
Bird of Prey is the designation, i know that ship by, warbird to my knowledge is first used for the romulan ships in TNG.

The klingon use of BoP comes AFAIK from a planned but not realised story thread in "The Search for Spock" (which introduced the klingon BoP)in which that ship was supposed to be a klingon/romulan joint design (the idea of a alliance/tech exchange between those two powers is based of the romulan use of klingon D-7s in "The Enterprise Incident"), which seems to have inherited the romulan designation. Note it is the first klingon ship shown with a cloaking device (which would also be part of the tech exchange).

FASA's Star Trek stuff from the 1980ies has both powers building and using that type of ship.
 
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