Rank & Rate: The Tom Baker Era

[Emperor-Tiberius]

While the according Jon Pertwee Era thread wasn't the resounding success, participation-wise, that I wanted it to be, I nevertheless still want to continue this trend for the following Doctors, in hopes of attracting more people in the talks.

This time, we follow Tom Baker, the legendary Fourth Doctor, the most iconic Doctor of them all. His time was also distinct for having three different producers work on the show, applying their own sensibilities and understanding of DW to it. Specifically, Phlip Hintchcliffe, Graham Williams and John Nathan Turner. He's also the Doctor who's era was most influenced by the late, great Robert Holmes, a writer whose influence was very visible previously, but whose untold importance bloomed during this time.

Personally, its a shame he wasn't invited to write this Doctor's final story. But ah well...

Which one of his 42* stories do you like best? Which one do you like worst? Which season's your favorite? Which producer-driven period was your favorite?

Discuss!

* I count Shada. Any version other than the BF one. I know some of you don't care, but I also don't. It was written for this Doctor. Period.

PS: No multi-Doctor stories after he's left, thus his cameo in The Five Doctors doesn't count.

 

[zarkon]

Listage, best to worst:

The Seeds of Doom
Genesis of the Daleks
The Ribos Operation
City of Death
The Masque of Mandragora
The Talons of Weng-Chiang
The Androids of Tara
Horror of Fang Rock
The Brain of Morbius
Pyramids of Mars
Terror of the Zygons
The Stones of Blood
Warriors Gate
The Deadly Assassin
State of Decay
The Sun Makers
The Ark in Space
The Power of Kroll
The Robots of Death
The Pirate Planet
The Leisure Hive
Nightmare of Eden
The Hand of Fear
Full Circle
The Horns of Nimon
The Sontaran Experiment
The Face of Evil
The Android Invasion
Planet of Evil
Robot
------ cut off for me overall enjoying the episode
Logopolis
The Armageddon Factor
The Invisible Enemy
The Keeper of Traken
Destiny of the Daleks
Revenge of the Cybermen
Meglos
The Creature from the Pit
Image of the Fendahl
Underworld
The Invasion of Time

Talkage:

The Seeds of Doom was incredible. The two fantastic locations, two great villain perfomances, a great script...can't really think of anything the serial did wrong. That really goes for my entire top four, though seeds is the serial I tend to go back to the most.

The Invasion of Time was an abomination, potraying the timelords as clownish incompetent morons ( a process in fairness began by hinch/holmes in The Deadly Assassin). From the heights as god like beings who seem to be able to psychically erase a planet from history in the War Games, we get this incompetant depiction in a poorly written serial. Added to the poor writing - especially the last two episodes, and the way leela and K9 were disposed of, and you get one of my least liked Who's.

Obviously Hinchcliffe & Holmes stand tall here - as far as editor/producers go, they are unquestionably the best in who's history, with only the turner/cartmel combo and RTD even close to them. H & H are the pinnacle of Who.

 

[VDCNI]

The Talons of Weng-Chiang
The Robots of Death
The Sun Makers
Image of the Fendahl
The Ribos Operation
The Stones of Blood
Horror of Fang Rock
Terror of the Zygons
Logopolis
The Face of Evil
State of Decay
The Ark in Space
Full Circle
Warriors Gate
The Androids of Tara
The Keeper of Traken
The Seeds of Doom
The Brain of Morbius
Pyramids of Mars
Genesis of the Daleks
The Hand of Fear
Robot
The Horns of Nimon
The Power of Kroll
The Creature from the Pit
City of Death
The Pirate Planet
The Masque of Mandragora
Planet of Evil
The Invasion of Time*
The Leisure Hive
The Invisible Enemy
Nightmare of Eden
The Sontaran Experiment
Underworld
Revenge of the Cybermen
The Android Invasion
Destiny of the Daleks
The Deadly Assassin
The Armageddon Factor
Meglos

I'm probably going to be unusual in not putting the Sarah Jane/Hinchcliffe stories at the top - I can appreciate the quality and understand why people rate it so highly but for some reason I've never been as fond of it as most - perhaps because Sarah Jane has never been a favourite companion of mine, I've always preferred Leela and Romana I.

The top 4 here would make my top 10 of all time with Talons my favourite Who story ever.

 

[Ithekro]

The Seeds of Doom was the first episode I ever saw and scared me so much I didn't intentionally watch Doctor Who again for at least a decade. I was I think five at the time.

 

[zarkon]

The Seeds of Doom was the first episode I ever saw and scared me so much I didn't intentionally watch Doctor Who again for at least a decade. I was I think five at the time.

Mary Whitehouse had a proper go at the beeb for that ep lol. I think it was a major reason behind the toning down of the violence we got with GW a year later.

 

[DWF]

The Seeds of Doom was the first episode I ever saw and scared me so much I didn't intentionally watch Doctor Who again for at least a decade. I was I think five at the time.

Mary Whitehouse had a proper go at the beeb for that ep lol. I think it was a major reason behind the toning down of the violence we got with GW a year later.

Gramham Williams became the produce for the 15th season, Seeds Of Doom was the 13th finiale so to speak. The story that set her off was the Deadly Assassin third part cliffhanger.

 

[kirk55555]

I'll rank all the 4th Doctor serials I've seen, but in categories instead of one big best to worst list(I've watched from Robot to The Androids of Tara, plus The City of Death)

Favorite:
The Talons of Weng-Chiang
Genesis of the Daleks

Great:
Ark in Space
Pyramids of Mars
The Ribos Operation

Ok:
Robot
The Sontaran Experiment
Revenge of the Cybermen
Terror of the Zygons
Planet of evil
The Brain of Morbius
The Seeds of Doom
The Hand of Fear
The Face of Evil
Horror of Fang Rock
The Invisible Enemy
Underworld
The Pirate Planet


Bad:
The Android Invasion
The Sun-Makers
The Deadly Assassin
The Masque of Mandragora
The Stones of Blood


Terrible:
The Invasion of Time
The Androids of tara
The City of Death (couldn't even finish)
The Robots of Death
Image of Fendahl (Really boring, only made to about the half way mark of episode 2)

Overall, I'm not as big a fan of the 4th Doctor as some people, but it wasn't actually Tom Baker's fault. He was a very good Doctor, he just got worse and worse writers as time went by. He had some classic stories, and more good then bad, but he had some of the worst classic who stories. He's a Doctor that I doubt I'll finish. The Androids of Tara and The City of Death were a one-two punch to my interest in the 4th Doctor. Its obvious that all the good writers had left Doctor Who behind at that point, or maybe it was the people in charge. Either way, I only intend to go back to the 4th Doctor to watch The Keeper of Traken/Logopolis, and even then I'll only be watching them for Anthony Ainley, not Tom baker.

As a quick aside, I still can't believe that people give the 6th Doctor so much grief over his costume, when the 4th Doctor's red suit is (in my opinion) a lot worse. If nothing else, I'm glad I haven't had to see it in action, outside of brief clips.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

City of Death is terrible. You're insane!

 

[Ithekro]

He said he was bored and never finished it.


I thought it was funny.

 

[kirk55555]

If I wanted to watch people wander around Paris with almost no plot, I'd watch a Travel Channel or PBS special. At least then you know what you're getting into from the beginning. As opposed to The City of Death, which seems to be a tourism ad for Paris filmed by the BBC and using Tom Baker. They stuck in just enough scripted stuff to call it a "story" instead of a travel special, and released it. Its like a NuWho Doctor-lite episode, except it was a plot-lite episode. Plus, the plot it did have was really bad, so those three minutes weren't very good, either.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

It really isn't just "tourism ad". Its an insanely funny, inventive sci-fi story, filled with, gasp, time travel paradoxes and actual charm! And Julian Glover as the last great original villain of the Tom Baker era.

 

[Ithekro]

Just how far did you get into City of Death? Two episodes? Or is Douglas Addams style of humor not your thing?

 

[kirk55555]

Just how far did you get into City of Death? Two episodes? Or is Douglas Addams style of humor not your thing?

Well, I'm not sure about his sense of humor. I really liked the older BBC and newer movie versions of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, if that means anything. As for how far I got, I watched one full episode, then decided my time could be better used by watching paint dry. If nothing else, more would actually happen in 25 minutes of paint drying

I like Tom Baker, but not enough to watch a whole serial of him and Romana II wandering around a city while a few mediocre bad guys try to steal the Mona Lisa. In the 25 minute episode, minus beginning and ending credits, we got about 3 minutes of plot, and the rest was the Dr Who people being way too impressed with the fact that they're in Paris. It was completely shameless, too. They knew they had no story, they just had a location, one which wasn't very interesting to see actors wander around. I haven't seen so much padding since the days of the Jon Pertwee 7 part serials, and even then the filler in those was usually more connected to the overall story.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

You're not willing to give a chance to City of Death, yet you felt Destiny of the Daleks, Horns of Nimon and Underworld were more deserving of attention?

Honestly, this doesn't compute. You're not making sense. The fact that its one of the most beloved DW story of all time should give you a clue that its at least decent.

 

[DWF]

Douglas Adams massively rewrote City Of Death because the original script was unfilmable even as much I like it, it's not in my top ten.

 

[kirk55555]

You're not willing to give a chance to City of Death, yet you felt Destiny of the Daleks, Horns of Nimon and Underworld were more deserving of attention?

Honestly, this doesn't compute. You're not making sense. The fact that its one of the most beloved DW story of all time should give you a clue that its at least decent.

I never watched Destiny of the Daleks or Horns of Nimon. I watched the 4th Doctor chronologically from Robot to The Androids of Tara, then I stopped watching 4th Doctor serials for awhile because of how atrocious The Androids of Tara was. Awhile later I tried to watch City of Death because I was bored and it was on Netflix.

After my experience with City of Death, I won't be watching any more 4th Doctor serials until I eventually decide to watch the last two Tom baker serials, and I'm only planning to watch them for Anthony Ainley. As far as I'm concerned, the 4th Doctor's run is basically over for me. If I haven't already seen it, I don't plan to see it. Which means I won't watch the last two parts of Key to Time, any of Season 17 (outside of the episode of City of Death I already saw, obviously) or any of Season 18 outside of Keeper of traken and Logopolis eventually.

Also, just because a lot of people like a story doesn't mean it has to be good, at least in my opinion. To use NuWho for an example, I hate Human Nature/Family of Blood, and thought Blink was very mediocre, yet people love those episodes. It doesn't change my opinion of them.

Douglas Adams massively rewrote City Of Death because the original script was unfilmable even as much I like it, it's not in my top ten.

I'm assuming by "rewrote" you mean he torn out half the script and replaced it with "The Doctor and Romana aimlessly wander around Paris"?

 

[DWF]

Douglas Adams massively rewrote City Of Death because the original script was unfilmable even as much I like it, it's not in my top ten.

I'm assuming by "rewrote" you mean he torn out half the script and replaced it with "The Doctor and Romana aimlessly wander around Paris"?

David Fisher's Season Sixteen story The Androids Of Tara, a spoof of the Anthony Hope classic The Prisoner Of Zenda, had been popular with Doctor Who producer Graham Williams. After finishing work on The Creature From The Pit for the programme's seventeenth season, Fisher was immediately asked to contribute another literary parody. This time, the target would be “Bulldog” Drummond, a tough-as-nails detective character created by Herman Cyril McNeile under the pseudonym “Sapper”. Drummond was introduced in the 1920 novel Bulldog Drummond, and went on to appear in almost fifty books and movies.
On January 12th, 1979, Fisher was commissioned to write “The Gamble With Time”. In keeping with the “Bulldog” Drummond novels, this was set in the 1920s, and saw the Doctor and Romana team up with private eye “Pug” Farquharson (whose name was an obvious pastiche of Drummond's). With gambling a crucial aspect of Fisher's plot, he originally set his scripts in Las Vegas. By the end of February, however, the action had been moved to Paris and Monte Carlo, which were felt to be a better fit for a Drummond send-up. It was decided that “A Gamble With Time” would be the second story in both the production and transmission line-ups for Season Seventeen, and hence it was designated Serial 5H. It would be made between The Creature From The Pit and Destiny Of The Daleks, although the order of these two stories would be interchanged in the broadcast schedule.

Only Baker, Ward and Chadbon went to PAris though and really the shooting in Paris had to justified. Paris wa atleast important to the storyline, unlike Saville in The Two Doctors.

 

[kirk55555]

The difference is that The Two Doctors was great, and didn't spend 20+ minutes doing nothing. For The City of Death, they could easily have handwaved the Mona Lisa into England (maybe it was there on a special exhibition at a museum, and the thieves were going to steal it then). If filming massive amounts of Baker and Ward randomly wandering around Paris was needed to justify the location, they shouldn't have used that location.

 

[DWF]

The difference is that The Two Doctors was great, and didn't spend 20+ minutes doing nothing. For The City of Death, they could easily have handwaved the Mona Lisa into England (maybe it was there on a special exhibition at a museum, and the thieves were going to steal it then). If filming massive amounts of Baker and Ward randomly wandering around Paris was needed to justify the location, they shouldn't have used that location.

Colin Baker, Bryant and Hines spent plenty of time wondering around Saville looking for the second Doctor. And really there was no need to go to Saville. City Of Death was literally written around Paris. New Orleans was the original choice for The Two Doctor, but it was changed for money reasons to Saville, some of the film was supposedly ruined and even more money was spent to refilm scenes that in the end turned out to be OK in the first place, Saville was a real nightmare.

 

[kirk55555]

The difference is that The Two Doctors was great, and didn't spend 20+ minutes doing nothing. For The City of Death, they could easily have handwaved the Mona Lisa into England (maybe it was there on a special exhibition at a museum, and the thieves were going to steal it then). If filming massive amounts of Baker and Ward randomly wandering around Paris was needed to justify the location, they shouldn't have used that location.

Colin Baker, Bryant and Hines spent plenty of time wondering around Saville looking for the second Doctor. And really there was no need to go to Saville. City Of Death was literally written around Paris. New Orleans was the original choice for The Two Doctor, but it was changed for money reasons to Saville, some of the film was supposedly ruined and even more money was spent to refilm scenes that in the end turned out to be OK in the first place, Saville was a real nightmare.

Well, The Two Doctors still didn't come off as a tourism ad for the city, and it had a plot that was interesting and hooks you immediately. Admittedly it also has my two favorite Classic Who Doctors together, but even if that wasn't the case, its still a more interesting story that doesn't waste as much time. It always feels like something is happening, and what is happening is interesting. The City of Death just feels like Tom Baker's vacation video turned into a Doctor Who episode, with the plot being stupid even by itself (at least from what I could tell, there is barely any plot to judge in the first place).