Questions about empires equal to the Federation, please.

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

The United Federation of Planets has Starfleet. From what I can remember, the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians have been rivals to Starfleet. I'm leaving out the Borg and Dominion as they're from other parts of the galaxy. Were there other "equals" to the Federation, or was it mostly just these three? I was thinking, the Federation is several hundred worlds, but not necessarily solar systems. This can include multiple worlds and moons in one solar system, still that's a lot of solar systems at the very least. Anyway, Starfleet must get spread pretty thin to protect all of this. Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and whoever else probably have far fewer worlds by comparison, allowing them to be more concentrated with what they do with their fleets. Then you have Starfleet potentially dealing with all 3 or more at the same time. No wonder the Enterprise never has any backup.

On the "space maps," Klingon and Romulan space looks almost as big as the Federation. Then we learn the one star going supernova and taking out Romulus collapsed the entire empire. It's like Earth being destroyed and no more Federation instead of Vulcan just becoming the new capital. Kind'a bonkers, no?

So, Treksperts, just how big are the Federation's rivals, or do they just have fewer worlds to protect, allowing more ships to go offense?

 

[Shawnster]

Canonically? That's about it. Federation, Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians are all the biggest boys on the block.

Technologically speaking, weapons strength, etc... You can add in Tholians, Gorns, Ferengi, Breen, Kzinti as being at or nearly on par with the Federation. The Gorn and Tholians claimed multiple star systems (or at least territory larger than 1 star system).

The First Federation was a one-off. We have no idea how big they were (or even if they really existed as a Federation).

The Tzenkethi were mentioned once or twice, but there is scant canon information about them.

The Talarians were able to stand up to the Federation and Starfleet, but how seriously did the Federation try? They seem to incompass multiple systems.

That's all off the top of my head.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Using the Romulans for example, how are they a rival to the Federation if the loss of Romulus effective brings the Romulan Star Empire to its knees? If Earth falls, does the Federation fall?

 

[The Wormhole]

If Earth falls, does the Federation fall?

Probably. At least Shinzon seemed to think so.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Probably. At least Shinzon seemed to think so.

Shinzon had plan to destroy multiple Federation worlds, not just Earth. In Star Trek (2009), Vulcan (a founding member world) was destroyed, but the Federation goes on. In Disco's 32nd century setting, Earth withdrew from the Federation, and yet it persisted.

 

[The Wormhole]

Shinzon had plan to destroy multiple Federation worlds, not just Earth. In Star Trek (2009), Vulcan (a founding member world) was destroyed, but the Federation goes on.

It sounds like you're talking about Nero. Shinzon, the villain in Nemesis was only interested in attacking Earth specifically because it would cripple the Federation.

In Disco's 32nd century setting, Earth withdrew from the Federation, and yet it persisted.

And then once Earth rejoined the Federation, the Federation was considered restored and no further effort was placed in bringing back any of the other planets that were members before the Burn that left.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

It sounds like you're talking about Nero. Shinzon, the villain in Nemesis was only interested in attacking Earth specifically because it would cripple the Federation.

And then once Earth rejoined the Federation, the Federation was considered restored and no further effort was placed in bringing back any of the other planets that were members before the Burn that left.

No, I'm talking about both Shinzon and Nero. I'm pretty sure Shinzon's plan was conquest, conquer the Federation, which means his plans were not limited to Earth.

I haven't seen Disco's later seasons, just the opening episodes of S3.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm pretty sure Shinzon's plan was conquest, conquer the Federation, which means his plans were not limited to Earth.

The Romulans who supported him wanted to conquer the Federation, Shinzon himself just wanted to wipe out Earth. Indeed, that was the whole reason why Commander Donatra turned on Shinzon and helped the Enterprise defeat him.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

The Romulans who supported him wanted to conquer the Federation, Shinzon himself just wanted to wipe out Earth. Indeed, that was the whole reason why Commander Donatra turned on Shinzon and helped the Enterprise defeat him.

But why would he stop at Earth? If he can take out Earth, why not take out all four founding member worlds?

 

[The Wormhole]

But why would he stop at Earth? If he can take out Earth, why not take out all four founding member worlds?

Congratulations, you just found the one plot hole with Nemesis everyone's been complaining about for the past twenty-two years.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Congratulations, you just found the one plot hole with Nemesis everyone's been complaining about for the past twenty-two years.

No, my question is to point out that he wouldn't stop at Earth.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, the movie as written seems to indicate he would.

 

[FredH]

The United Federation of Planets has Starfleet. From what I can remember, the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians have been rivals to Starfleet. I'm leaving out the Borg and Dominion as they're from other parts of the galaxy. Were there other "equals" to the Federation, or was it mostly just these three? I was thinking, the Federation is several hundred worlds, but not necessarily solar systems. This can include multiple worlds and moons in one solar system, still that's a lot of solar systems at the very least. Anyway, Starfleet must get spread pretty thin to protect all of this. Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and whoever else probably have far fewer worlds by comparison, allowing them to be more concentrated with what they do with their fleets. Then you have Starfleet potentially dealing with all 3 or more at the same time. No wonder the Enterprise never has any backup.

On the "space maps," Klingon and Romulan space looks almost as big as the Federation. Then we learn the one star going supernova and taking out Romulus collapsed the entire empire. It's like Earth being destroyed and no more Federation instead of Vulcan just becoming the new capital. Kind'a bonkers, no?

So, Treksperts, just how big are the Federation's rivals, or do they just have fewer worlds to protect, allowing more ships to go offense?

We don’t really know. It’s generally assumed that, say, the Klingons are comparable in size to the Federation, but I don’t think it’s been explicitly stated — and more to the point, no published map is canon. Even maps that may have been glimpsed onscreen can be overwritten by some later script.

Basically, the Federation’s rivals are as big as the writers of a given episode or film want them to be. If some future episode establishes that some empire you never heard of before is several times larger than the Federation and fought several wars with it over the centuries, then it’ll just be true (though many will inevitably call it a canon violation; it will actually be canon creation, but never mind).

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The writers have left it all pretty vague, probably deliberately so. We have an idea of how much space each of the empires claims in a 2 dimensional slice, but not the density of worlds within that area or the populations of them.

We know that in Kirk's day the Klingons had the strength to beat the Federation in a war and the Romulans were pretty evenly matched. The Klingons could beat them in Picard's day as well, though the Romulans were always looking for sneaky ways to get a victory, so they didn't want to push their luck. Then a supernova took out their capital, so that presumably weakened them quite a bit, though the Federation's main shipyards also took a hit.

The Cardassians were strong enough to not get immediately stomped by the Klingons, but they were definitely a lower tier empire even before all the losses they took in the Dominion War. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ferengi were more of a threat; they certainly had some high tier warships and didn't have to strip mine other worlds just to keep their empire going.

And the Breen and Gorn have recently joined the scary main antagonist club, in the far future and the past, so they're serious rivals to the Federation now.

 

[Shawnster]

While we're at it, canon only depicts the Federation as a real multi-species empire/union. The Romulans also rule the Remans but it seems they are only on Romulus or Remus. I don't recall any civilizations besides Klingons being depicted as ruled by the Klingons.

 

[drt]

While we're at it, canon only depicts the Federation as a real multi-species empire/union. The Romulans also rule the Remans but it seems they are only on Romulus or Remus. I don't recall any civilizations besides Klingons being depicted as ruled by the Klingons.

I'm pretty sure we meet a Klingon client race in DS9, but I'm drawing a blank on the details.

We know that in Kirk's day the Klingons had the strength to beat the Federation in a war and the Romulans were pretty evenly matched.

Based on their depiction in TOS, I'd argue that in Kirk's day the Romulans were more of a regional power. The Federation had them boxed into a neutral zone, which Starfleet violated several times with basically no repercussions - plus the Romulans had to obtain D7 starships from the Klingons because their Birds-of-Prey were woefully inadequate. After TNG featured them as a major power they got retconned during ENT to having always been one.

 

[kkt]

I'm surprised you think in Kirk's time the Klingons could have beaten the Federation in a war. My impression from Errand of Mercy was that they were fairly evenly matched, and if anything the Federation was stronger and just didn't want to spend the lives and resources to beat the Klingons. The Klingons and the Federation did eventually make peace, and the Klingons wouldn't have made peace with anyone they could conquer.

 

[Nerys Myk]

While we're at it, canon only depicts the Federation as a real multi-species empire/union. The Romulans also rule the Remans but it seems they are only on Romulus or Remus. I don't recall any civilizations besides Klingons being depicted as ruled by the Klingons.

I'm pretty sure we meet a Klingon client race in DS9, but I'm drawing a blank on the details.

The not-Trill spotty race from TNG (Kriosans?) had been under Klingon rule. And the Organians in TOS. Kirk also mentions what life under Klingon rule is like. So they do have other species in the Empire.

Gentlemen, I have seen what the Klingons do to planets like yours. They are organised into vast slave labour camps. No freedoms whatsoever. Your goods will be confiscated. Hostages taken and killed, your leaders confined. You'd be far better off on a penal planet. Infinitely better off.

 

[kkt]

The Klingons didn't rule the Organians, the Organians just let them think they did for a few days. But, yes, Kirk did refer to other conquered planets under the Klingons.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Klingons didn't rule the Organians, the Organians just let them think they did for a few days. But, yes, Kirk did refer to other conquered planets under the Klingons.

The Klingons thought they were in charge, so it counts.