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Spoilers Questions about a certain admiral and how it colors other aspects of "Trek"

Citiprime

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
Spoilers for the entire season... as well as cutting cross both TNG and Picard.

There's been longstanding arguments about Jellico, and whether Riker was "wrong" in resisting Jellico's intentions in TNG's "Chain of Command." I wonder if anyone has changed their position after Prodigy? Especially since he's shown to be wrong at almost every instance.

I think a pretty good argument can be made for why Prodigy shows his philosophy is wrong for Starfleet and the Federation, and lead to Picard publicly declaring "it was no longer Starfleet" in Picard season 1.

Jellico basically neuters the historical mission of Starfleet, and goes along with a societal change that turns the Federation inward. Instead of pushing outward, Starfleet becomes militaristic and basically repurposed to be a patrolling military force not concerned with the expansion of science and knowledge.

The synth attack on Mars becomes a 9/11-type event where it's used for a recomplete reordering of Federation society (e,g.., why would you shut down Starfleet Academy when you have a shortage?).
 
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They made out like Jellico was the boss, but I don't see how one person could unilaterally do all that. He may have led the charge, but plenty of Badmirals had to have been onboard.

My issue is that I don't see how Strfleet ended up so completely understaffed following the Dominion War. Wars often lead to periods of rebuilding and expansion.
 
They made out like Jellico was the boss, but I don't see how one person could unilaterally do all that. He may have led the charge, but plenty of Badmirals had to have been onboard.

My issue is that I don't see how Strfleet ended up so completely understaffed following the Dominion War. Wars often lead to periods of rebuilding and expansion.
Usually after major wars there's drawdowns. A redirection of resources to those areas that have been neglected from having so much labor and material spent on the war effort. That could have happened after the Dominion War, especially if there were worlds like Betazed that endured occupation and had to rebuild.

If you take "Chain of Command" as a primer on Jellico's vision of Starfleet, it seems he truly sees Starfleet as a military/defensive organization first, and its exploration duties as a secondary aspect of its nature. So further militarizing Starfleet after the Synth attack against Mars seems fully in keeping with Jellico's nature.

Also, Picard season 1 indicates there were Federation members that threatened secession if Starfleet didn't become more insular and redirect resources towards protecting/supporting member worlds versus using it to explore outward.
 
Do you think the attack by the Living Construct markedly effected the Federation numbers? Being a kids show it was purposefully vague about the death toll but it seemed to me that a number of Starfleet ships were destroyed along with, one supposes, their whole crew.
 
Do you think the attack by the Living Construct markedly effected the Federation numbers? Being a kids show it was purposefully vague about the death toll but it seemed to me that a number of Starfleet ships were destroyed along with, one supposes, their whole crew.

The newly constructed, and as yet never to have been used fleet earmarked for the Romulan Evacuation?

The real problem was 40 billion(?) Synths Federation-wide who were doing menial jobs without it actually being slavery, which is why Holograms were no longer popular, since they kept declaring their sapience at the most inopportune times, who were being ungraciously retired.

They made a comedy a few years back called "A day without Mexicans" about how white America falls apart, if legal and illegal immigrants are not there to do everything for the privileged gringos.

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They made out like Jellico was the boss, but I don't see how one person could unilaterally do all that. He may have led the charge, but plenty of Badmirals had to have been onboard.

My issue is that I don't see how Strfleet ended up so completely understaffed following the Dominion War. Wars often lead to periods of rebuilding and expansion.
But not in staffing.
 
No. They threatened secession because the Federation was assisting the Romulans.
I think an argument can be made that Prodigy's finale opens that up for debate.

That it can be reasoned the division within the Federation may have been more about changing the philosophy behind Starfleet. That it was no longer something elements within the Federation believed was either their mission or responsibility to be out there on the frontier, encountering issues, and being there to support species like the Romulans.

If it was just about the Romulan evacuation specifically, why did the powers that be also need to stop all exploratory missions and shut down Starfleet Academy?

I mean are you telling me the synth attack did more damage to Starfleet's ability to explore space and train cadets than the entire Dominion War? They didn't fundamentally alter their mission after that, but this attack and the threats from a segment of Federation planets caused that.
 
I think an argument can be made that Prodigy's finale opens that up for debate.
And granted I haven't seen any of Prodigy S2 yet, so I won't comment on what is or isn't stated there, however in your previous post you stated:
Picard season 1 indicates there were Federation members that threatened secession if Starfleet didn't become more insular and redirect resources towards protecting/supporting member worlds versus using it to explore outward.
Which is an error since in Picard S1 they stated it was in protest of Romulan aid that fourteen worlds threatened to secede from the Federation. Nowhere in Picard was it stated they wanted to secede because they were against exploration and wanted Starfleet to be more insular. You appear to be retroactively applying information from Prodigy into Picard which was never in Picard to begin with.
 
mean are you telling me the synth attack did more damage to Starfleet's ability to explore space and train cadets than the entire Dominion War? They didn't fundamentally alter their mission after that, but this attack and the threats from a segment of Federation planets caused that.
One after the other could have that impact. Separately it might not have but together? Plus the near Borg attack, the automated ship debacle, and it all adds up.
 
Which is an error since in Picard S1 they stated it was in protest of Romulan aid that fourteen worlds threatened to secede from the Federation. Nowhere in Picard was it stated they wanted to secede because they were against exploration and wanted Starfleet to be more insular. You appear to be retroactively applying information from Prodigy into Picard which was never in Picard to begin with.
Granted, I will agree that's never explicitly stated. But I always took that as the subtext. That it wasn't just about helping the Romulans. That's absolutely the stated reason. But I always read into it that helping the Romulans was symbolic of something certain Federation members were sick of being dragged into.

And it's especially evident given Picard's belief that after the synth attack "it was no longer Starfleet," as well as Admiral Clancy's attitude towards what the Federation and Starfleet should represent as far as deciding "which species live and which species die."

It showed there had been a fundamental shift in the values of the Federation and Starfleet, and this version of Starfleet Command was truly "no longer your house, Jean-Luc."

PICARD: We withdrew. The galaxy was mourning, burying its dead, and Starfleet had slunk from its duties! The decision to call off the rescue and to abandon those people we had sworn to save was not just dishonorable, it was downright criminal! And I was not prepared to stand by and be a spectator. And you, my dear, you have no idea what Dunkirk is, right? You're a stranger to history. You're a stranger to war. You just wave your hand, and it all goes away. Well, it's not so easy for those who died, and it was not so easy for those who were left behind. We're done here.​
To add to this, if I remember right, one of the stated reasons Seven of Nine gives for why she's out there with the Fenris Rangers on the frontier was they were filling the gaps that Starfleet had left behind when they withdrew back into Federation space.
 
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There's been longstanding arguments about Jellico, and whether Riker was "wrong" in resisting Jellico's intentions in TNG's "Chain of Command." I wonder if anyone has changed their position after Prodigy? Especially since he's shown to be wrong at almost every instance.

I think a pretty good argument can be made for why Prodigy shows his philosophy is wrong for Starfleet and the Federation, and lead to Picard publicly declaring "it was no longer Starfleet" in Picard season 1.

Jellico basically neuters the historical mission of Starfleet, and goes along with a societal change that turns the Federation inward. Instead of pushing outward, Starfleet becomes militaristic and basically repurposed to be a patrolling military force not concerned with the expansion of science and knowledge.

The synth attack on Mars becomes a 9/11-type event where it's used for a recomplete reordering of Federation society (e,g.., why would you shut down Starfleet Academy when you have a shortage?).
I think the issue between Jellico and Riker is entirely separate from the Mars attack issue. With regards to Riker, I would say Jellico was generally right that the crew had to adapt to him, except that his idea to completely change the ship's organisation, days before a confrontation with the Cardassian fleet, was madness.

But in Prodigy, I don't think he has always been shown to be wrong. His orders to destroy the Protostar in s1 were actually a good call, it would have avoided the major loss of Starships later. His order to not enter the timey-wimey wormhole because it was too dangerous: actually correct as well. As it happened with Dal and Majel, they nearly got the entire universe destroyed. In anothe reality where Janeway went herself, she got killed along with her key officers. Good call from Jellico.

Jellico recalled Voyager-A and the Protostar: probably a good call with the information he has, at least both Janeway's officers and the Protogies themselves agreed with it at the time. The headquarters and Daystrom etc. should have even more brains and info to throw at the problem, after all.

Telling Janeway Starfleet can't help them: just a statement of fact. In grand Starfleet tradition, the hero ships are the only "in the quadrant" and they also happen to have much faster drives than 99,999% of the rest of the fleet.

And the lack of starfleet vessels, along with the third major attack by the Vau N'akat within a year or so, shows that he has a point that Starfleet is overstretched, taking into account the massive loss of vessels and personnel at Mars and all the previous losses starting with Wolf-359 and the Dominion War. And even after defeating the Borg and the Dominion, it's basically still open season on the Federation and Starfleet (considering Mars was a Romulan attack - which Jellico and his fellow admirals may well suspect).

Moreover, Jellico is the "spokesperson" for Starfleet Command in Prodigy but he is not sole ruler of Starfleet and/or the Federation, obviously. He is merely Janeway's direct superior, probably in charge of a certain fleet/area or at most of Starfleet Operations in general. He does not make those calls alone, may not even agree with some of them.

He especially shouldn't be involved with Starfleet Academy. The decision to close it for the time being, which is indeed a very weird decision considering they need to be training new personnel pronto, can't be his alone and he may not even have been involved (not his area of responsibility).

I'm guessing that Starfleet Academy, in its present form, is seen as taking too long to train new recruits (and to have too high standards) and it is being replaced by "on-the-job training" (as the Protogies have been getting and will continue to get with holo-Janeway) and by more limited but more numerous training courses planetside. Some of the instructors may be recalled to active duty in Starfleet installations.

Basically, I think Starfleet is conforming to the new reality and setting defendable priorities. They are the only form of defense that much of the Federation (including Earth and such places as Betazed) have.

They made out like Jellico was the boss, but I don't see how one person could unilaterally do all that. He may have led the charge, but plenty of Badmirals had to have been onboard.

My issue is that I don't see how Strfleet ended up so completely understaffed following the Dominion War. Wars often lead to periods of rebuilding and expansion.
Agreed on Jellico not being the boss of all of Starfleet, but I don't think those others deserve the label "badmiral".

Starfleet had enormous casualties during the Dominion war, and now again at Mars, and in between some minor disasters. They were already stretched thin during Prodigy S1, which is why Berniss Frex was alone in his relay station.

Also, it is said that Jellico militarises Starfleet but then Starfleet is the de-facto military arm of the Federation (with the possible exception of Andorian and Vulcan fleets, who may retain military value, there does not appear to be any other form of defense but Starfleet). One could level the same complaint at Sisko (build the Defiant - a *gasp* warship and it cloaks - and then militarized the Federation against the Dominion, together with "badmiral" Ross and with illicit help of a Cardassian agent) and at Janeway herself. Note how Janeway, in her incomparable style, embarked on her own war with an entire enemy planet and subdued it by herself in a matter of days (or a couple weeks at most). How many Vau N'akat vessels did she destroy? Oh, and she also illegally used cloak - multiple times - send agents undercover to undermine an alien society - and broke numerous treaties.

I don't think the admiralty can just plan to always have one or two vessels miraculously defeat large enemy armadas that would normally be able to annihilate entire fleets of Starfleet vessels. They need to focus resources to both keep the Federation running (replacing the now defunct androids in some manner) and to defend it.
 
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They made out like Jellico was the boss, but I don't see how one person could unilaterally do all that. He may have led the charge, but plenty of Badmirals had to have been onboard.

It didn't seem to me that Jellico was doing anything more than passing on the decision made by those he answered to. Just because he was Janeway's point of contact relating the orders doesn't mean he was personally the one responsible for them. I mean, surely the president and/or the Federation Council would've made the decision, not just Starfleet. A military in a democratic society doesn't make unilateral policy decisions, it follows the orders of the elected civilian government.

If anything, I thought Prodigy showed Jellico in a kinder, less caricatured light than a number of tie-ins have done. Yes, he was issuing orders that went against what Janeway and the kids wanted, but he delivered them sympathetically and they were reasonable from his perspective. (Really, Janeway's plan to time-travel through the wormhole was incredibly dangerous, and indeed it nearly led to the destruction of the universe, so arguably Jellico was right to reject her plan.) And he did come around and authorize the mission to Solum when the situation changed. I felt it was a balanced portrayal that avoided demonizing him.


My issue is that I don't see how Strfleet ended up so completely understaffed following the Dominion War. Wars often lead to periods of rebuilding and expansion.

They explained that many of Starfleet's ships and resources were tied up in the Romulan evacuation, and many of the rest were lost in the Living Construct's attack at the end of season 1.
 
I never understood the love affair with Jellico in the face of obviously reasons to dislike him. Those who like Jellico - do you really enjoy being micromanaged to death?

If he's liked simply becaus he's "badass" like a WWE heal, well then to each their own. I expert more from my fictional universe of Star Trek when it comes to representing the best of what earth has to offer to the Federation.
 
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I never understood the love affair with Jellico in the face of obviously reasons to dislike him. Those who like Jellico - do you really enjoy being micromanaged to death?

I don't "love" Jellico, but I don't think he's irredeemable either. The truth is usually found in the middle ground, not the extremes. Jellico was, of course, written in "Chain of Command" as a less ideal commanding officer than Picard, and he was the wrong captain for that particular mission. But Ronny Cox's performance gave me the impression of someone who'd be a perfectly nice guy if you met him outside of a command situation. I mean, he hung his grandkids' pictures on his ready room walls. So it makes no sense that people want to caricature him as some absolute bastard. Like any human being, he surely has his good and bad points. And he wouldn't have made it to the admiralty if he didn't do some things right. It's just that he's cast in the story role of an antagonistic authority figure because that's what stories need sometimes. So we see him on his worst days rather than his best.

Star Trek is a franchise that rewards intelligence and empathy. Wanting antagonists to be pure one-note villains is anathema to that. Saying that Jellico should be understood as a multifaceted human being rather than simplistically demonized is not a "love affair with Jellico," it's simply an acknowledgment that Star Trek is not a brainless franchise with one-dimensional characters.

I mean, good grief, if we can be asked to find sympathetic qualities in mass murderers like Gul Dukat and Emperor Georgiou, is it really that shocking to suggest that a Starfleet officer who was kind of a jerk that one time might be redeemable too?
 
Those who like Jellico - do you really enjoy being micromanaged to death?
People died?

Star Trek is a franchise that rewards intelligence and empathy. Wanting antagonists to be pure one-note villains is anathema to that. Saying that Jellico should be understood as a multifaceted human being rather than simplistically demonized is not a "love affair with Jellico," it's simply an acknowledgment that Star Trek is not a brainless franchise with one-dimensional characters.
Exactly. Jellico is assigned and comes in to deal with a difficult situation. Is he perfect? No. But, neither is he a complete monster like he is often described as.
 
Exactly. Jellico is assigned and comes in to deal with a difficult situation. Is he perfect? No. But, neither is he a complete monster like he is often described as.
And nor is he a badguy in Prodigy; it's just that there, too, he has that role of an antagonistic authority figure, but more like a Nechayev than a Buenamigo. Just doing his job.
 
People died?


Exactly. Jellico is assigned and comes in to deal with a difficult situation. Is he perfect? No. But, neither is he a complete monster like he is often described as.

Not a monster. He's not serial killer. Just someone who doesn't foster trust among his crew and seems inflexible to any finesse or diverse viewpoints. My way or the high way attitude.

Sisko ( who is definitely not perfect) is a great example of someone who is tough, a bad ass but also listens to his crew and is good at building relationships. Just wondering if Jellico skiped the empathy training he undoubtedly received at the academy.
 
Not a monster. He's not serial killer. Just someone who doesn't foster trust among his crew and seems inflexible to any finesse or diverse viewpoints. My way or the high way attitude.
Ok. But that's not a reason to dislike him. Certainly I don't like him for the below reason...

If he's liked simply becaus he's "badass" like a WWE heal
...but I think there is more too him than that. Fostering trust depends greatly on the crew, their temperament and capability.
 
Ok. But that's not a reason to dislike him. Certainly I don't like him for the below reason...


...but I think there is more too him than that. Fostering trust depends greatly on the crew, their temperament and capability.

Not a reason maybe for you dislike him.

Personality I don't think it's unreasonable to dislike someone who dismisses your feedback out of hand. My last boss was like Jellico. Micromanaged us . Changed all our tasks so we *didn't* excel at our strengths. Killed morale . Now we have a different boss and surprise surprise we are much more productive because this boss takes in feedback and is open to changing their approach.
 
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