Original ideas for Deep Space 9's later seasons.

[BohandiAnsoid]

I remember doing some readings on Deep Space 9 and I read that DS9 was always going to have (at least) 6 seasons. This was planned from the beginning. However, by Season 6, the series was changed greatly, from the settings, enemiess, interprrsonal relations and so on. Does anyone have any data how the later Season (post - 2) were supposed to go, how charatcers were supposed to develop, before they brought in Dominion, Defiant and (especially) Worf? I do remember reading they were going to make Jadzia/Julian a thing (whatever for good or bad, I leave for you to decide), but I do not remember anything else. Do anyone have any data on this?

By the way, this makes Ezri's line to Bashir about "If not Worf, it would be you" a bit of meta reference. And indicates Quark never had any chance with Jadzia (Ezri is a diffrent matter, IMO it would be curious to see).

 

[Tosk]

Everything I've ever heard indicates that they did not map out future seasons in that way.
There were certainly ideas that didn't get used, or directions altered (like the Dominion being pushed back a year thanks to season four's Klingon focus) but the majority of the series was written reactively as they went, seeing things that worked, dropping things they weren't happy with...

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

But are there any informations about other ideas that were "being thrown around"?

 

[Michael]

The only thing that comes to mind is that I always got the impression they originally planned to do much more with Bajor and Bajoran politics. I suppose an early plan might have been to work towards Bajor joining the Federation at the end of the run of the show. But after the first couple of seasons they kind of dropped the Bajor-centric arcs (safe for the one-off Bajor episode every now and then, of course) because (I guess) they didn’t consider them interesting enough.

But other than that it’s exactly like @Tosk is saying: They only ever made very loose plans that rarely went further ahead than the respective season they were working on, making it up as they were going. What we now call the “Dominion War arc”, for example, was never more that a broad strokes plan to introduce an interesting foe in the Gamma Quadrant and show some large-scale war.

 

[DonIago]

In retrospect, especially after seeing PIC and to a lesser degree most of DISCO, I'm really relieved that DS9 didn't go the same route as those and many other shows with a seasonal 'Big Bad'-style approach. Having the Dominion War be essentially a one season affair would have been frustrating and likely would have deprived us of some very good episodes, and wouldn't have given the most devastating war we've seen in Star Trek history the time it needed to breathe.

 

[drt]

The only thing that comes to mind is that I always got the impression they originally planned to do much more with Bajor and Bajoran politics. I suppose an early plan might have been to work towards Bajor joining the Federation at the end of the run of the show. But after the first couple of seasons they kind of dropped the Bajor-centric arcs (safe for the one-off Bajor episode every now and then, of course) because (I guess) they didn’t consider them interesting enough.

I'd agree that a focusing on Bajor was probably the original plan based on the initial seasons. My assumption is that was too inward looking for a show where the main location is the cross-roads of several major galactic powers, and the broader story opportunities available there.

 

[Michael]

This brings up the question for me if during Deep Space Nine’s conception in Piller’s and Berman’s mind there was any kind of vague plan for what they wanted to do with the wormhole and what lies in the Gamma Quadrant. Was it only ever meant to bring the alien of the week to the station or did they have an original inkling of what they wanted to do with it on a larger scale at some point?

And what about the prophets and Sisko’s role as their emissary? Rewatching the show I’m always taken aback by how little either of those matter in the first couple of seasons before they decided to do something interesting with the emissary thing.

I guess in the beginning of the show their mindset was much more rooted in (at that time common) episodic, self-contained storytelling and they just didn’t think of “arcs”. Considering how open-ended their concepts often were it’s kind of mind-blowing how well everything fits together looked at as a whole. I mean, it’s so interesting that when they dropped the name “Dominion” as early as the episode “Rules of Acquisition” they had no idea what exactly it would even be or that they only came up with the idea that the Founders would be Odo’s people between seasons two and three. Flying by the seat of their pants really worked out for this kind of writers room.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

And does anyone know what were initial plan for interpersonal relations, and how they wanted to evolve them (other than alreadt mentioned in the initial post)?

 

[Michael]

I very much doubt there was anything planned beyond the strong father/son relationship of the Siskos, the mentor/protégé dynamic between Sisko and Dax and maybe the “frinemey” thing they got going between Odo and Quark (that they emphasized early on because Auberjonois and Shimerman were old acting chums). With the rest of it you really can notice during the first season how they try out all the various character combinations and see what works and what doesn’t. That’s how they seemed to notice Bashir/O'Brien, Kira/Dax and Kira/Odo working very well as friends. Famously the whole romance between Kira and Odo only ever got written into the show because of the way Auberjonois made Odo look at Kira in some scenes. Bashir being into Dax on the other hand seems to be largely abandoned after season one, when they started to write them more as good, platonic friends.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

At

And what about the prophets and Sisko’s role as their emissary? Rewatching the show I’m always taken aback by how little either of those matter in the first couple of seasons before they decided to do something interesting with the emissary thing.

I think the opposite is rather more true. The pilot was what Michael Piller envisioned the show would be, with deeper explorations of religion and psyche. Unfortunately, they did much of the first two seasons in a rather mundane way, reproducing typical Star Trek. The Circle trilogy was in part trying to get the series back on course. What Ira Behr frequently says is that they had to keep going back to the pilot, in order to find what makes the series unique. (Of course, the Dominion ended up replacing Bajoran politics.)

And does anyone know what were initial plan for interpersonal relations, and how they wanted to evolve them (other than alreadt mentioned in the initial post)?

In his appearance on The 7th Rule to discuss WYLB, Behr said he really would have liked to do a lot more with Dax and Bashir. I'm sure most would disagree.

 

[Michael]

I think the opposite is rather more true. The pilot was what Michael Piller envisioned the show would be, with deeper explorations of religion and psyche. Unfortunately, they did much of the first two seasons in a rather mundane way, reproducing typical Star Trek. The Circle trilogy was in part trying to get the series back on course. What Ira Behr frequently says is that they had to keep going back to the pilot, in order to find what makes the series unique. (Of course, the Dominion ended up replacing Bajoran politics.)

I’m not sure I understand. How is that the opposite of what I wrote? What I meant was they introduced Sisko as the emissary of the prophets in the pilot, but then that gets rarely even mentioned again before like season three, when suddenly they wrote Kira and all the Bajorans almost worshipping him, which is an aspect that’s almost non-existent during the first two seasons.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

As for Bashir/Dax, I pretty liked Jadzia/Julian, (but NOT Julian/Ezri, I donlt like them), but, whatever I would like to them to be on the show really depends on how well the writters would handle it. For me, what's importnt is that Bashir would have to be able to solidly make sure (and show it!) that, when he's taking care of Jadzia (or any other partner) in a medical capacity, he's treating them like everyone else, and DON'T LET HIS PERSONNAL FEELINGS GET IN THE WAY (I mean, Kes was treating Neeelix in a medical capacity on Voyager, but she separated it pretty well and nobody complained on that side of the pairing), and I saw some fanfiction writters doing it pretty well for Jadzia/Julian. But, without that, no, I don't want this pairing badly written.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I’m not sure I understand. How is that the opposite of what I wrote? What I meant was they introduced Sisko as the emissary of the prophets in the pilot, but then that gets rarely even mentioned again before like season three, when suddenly they wrote Kira and all the Bajorans almost worshipping him, which is an aspect that’s almost non-existent during the first two seasons.

Much of the first two seasons is working in a generic TNG mode. A lot of stories are written by outside writers who knew TNG, but were utterly clueless about what DS9 was supposed to be. Because the stories were often missing thr mark, the scripts were handed off to new writers, who themselves not familiar with what made DS9 distinct, when the staff writers didn't have time. All producers have admitted that they "lost the plot," struggling to produce episodes, but losing a sense of what DS9 was supposed to be. Indeed, it seems most critics think that seasons 1 and 3 are low grade TNG (an unfair critique, IMO).

ETA: Piller wanted a series that was more focused on the personality of Sisko and his relationship with Bajor. That was lost.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

To be hionest, my favorite Season is 3, followed by 4. They're not boring (mostly, with some exceptions), sometimes dark, but not that dark as later Seasons. Plus, friendly Jadzia/Julian interactions (while they were still interacting but Julian gave her much more space) happened then. And we were still exploring Trill culture, rather than using the local Trill to explode Kliongon culture.


I would also love to have the "government conspiracy" aspect of Equiburum" to be followed on. In Deep Space 9 preferably, but another series would do as well.

 

[Michael]

Jadzia/Julian

If you’ll allow a frank and possibly personal question: Why is that such a thing for you? In your relatively short time on the board I remember you bringing it up numerous times. To be honest, this thread now just seems like another pretext to yet again talk and theorize about this specific relationship that barely even happened on the show. Is that just like a personal favorite pet theory or something more? It’s starting to feel like a mild obsession, to be frank. Which is of course okay; I think we’re all a bit obsessed about something Trek related around here. But I just wonder: What more could there possibly be to explore about this relationship that outside of a handful of moments on the show didn’t even play that much of a role?

Much of the first two seasons is working in a generic TNG mode. A lot of stories are written by outside writers who knew TNG, but were utterly clueless about what DS9 was supposed to be. Because the stories were often missing thr mark, the scripts were handed off to new writers, who themselves not familiar with what made DS9 distinct, when the staff writers didn't have time. All producers have admitted that they "lost the plot," struggling to produce episodes, but losing a sense of what DS9 was supposed to be. Indeed, it seems most critics think that seasons 1 and 3 are low grade TNG (an unfair critique, IMO).

ETA: Piller wanted a series that was more focused on the personality of Sisko and his relationship with Bajor. That was lost.

Yes, agreed. And that’s exactly what I meant when I said “And what about the prophets and Sisko’s role as their emissary? Rewatching the show I’m always taken aback by how little either of those matter in the first couple of seasons before they decided to do something interesting with the emissary thing”. To which you replied “I think the opposite is rather more true.” But it seems you’re actually agreeing with me: They wanted the series to focus on Sisko as the emissary to the Bajorans, but they didn’t do much with it for the first few years.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Honestly, I was quite obsessed with Jadzia/Julian once, but I toner it down a lot ever since I began watching Voyager. If you think I posted a lot about them here, you should see how much I posted about Kes on Voyager board. And large reason for that is because it's something that was hinted even in the pilot, but not much developed later. But it's not the only thing. I generally have a spot for things that were introduced early on but not developed much. Kes is another example.

Plus, Julian Bashir seems to be quite like me. And, like I was in my life, I feel he's quite often misunderstood. And I want him to be happy due to this. And I felt, once, that Jadzia/Julian would make him (and Jadzia too, the host especially) happy. I have doubts about it now, which os part, but just a part, of why I said what I said before.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If you’ll allow a frank and possibly personal question: Why is that such a thing for you? In your relatively short time on the board I remember you bringing it up numerous times. To be honest, this thread now just seems like another pretext to yet again talk and theorize about this specific relationship that barely even happened on the show. Is that just like a personal favorite pet theory or something more? It’s starting to feel like a mild obsession, to be frank. Which is of course okay; I think we’re all a bit obsessed about something Trek related around here. But I just wonder: What more could there possibly be to explore about this relationship that outside of a handful of moments on the show didn’t even play that much of a role?


Yes, agreed. And that’s exactly what I meant when I said “And what about the prophets and Sisko’s role as their emissary? Rewatching the show I’m always taken aback by how little either of those matter in the first couple of seasons before they decided to do something interesting with the emissary thing”. To which you replied “I think the opposite is rather more true.” But it seems you’re actually agreeing with me: They wanted the series to focus on Sisko as the emissary to the Bajorans, but they didn’t do much with it for the first few years.

What I'm saying is that they are circling back to the direction set by the pilot, a sentiment Behr expresses frequently. There was less innovation in later seasons than what I believe you describe. DS9 was always meant tomb darker, more focused on characters and consequences, but it lost its way in the crunch to present episodes in the early seasons.

 

[Michael]

Honestly, I was quite obsessed with Jadzia/Julian once, but I toner it down a lot ever since I began watching Voyager. If you think I posted a lot about them here, you should see how much I posted about Kes on Voyager board. And large reason for that is because it's something that was hinted even in the pilot, but not much developed later. But it's not the only thing. I generally have a spot for things that were introduced early on but not developed much. Kes is another example.

Plus, Julian Bashir seems to be quite like me. And, like I was in my life, I feel he's quite often misunderstood. And I want him to be happy due to this. And I felt, once, that Jadzia/Julian would make him (and Jadzia too, the host especially) happy. I have doubts about it now, which os part, but just a part, of why I said what I said before.

Thanks for explaining that and for not reacting negatively to my question. I didn’t want you to think I’m judging you; it’s just something I noticed about you and I’m sure others have as well. I totally get having those sort of micro-obsessions. I can’t think of something specific off the top of my head, but I definitely have stuff like that as well. And I’m rather certain there was a time in the past where someone noticed me constantly bringing up a random Trek obsession in my early posts and threads as well. It’s one of the things that’s fun about being a life-long Trek fan, I guess: There’s just so much stuff and minutia in the various shows and everyone can pick something to obsess about. I guess what I’m maybe trying to say is: Don’t let it become the only thing you’re known for posting here, hehe.

Oh and yes, I totally felt a kinship to Bashir too when I was younger; especially the aloof / awkward version of him early in the show’s run. It’s pretty satisfying to witness when watching the show how he grows into a more mature and serious version of himself. I think that’s maybe why I never took his attraction to Jadzia all that seriously, because it very much reminded me of the various times I lost my heart to a random girl I met somewhere.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Irony here is this posting of this, and even just Jadzia/Julian stuff is my attempt to diversify my postings, as before I posted almost exclusively about Kes (and the Ocampa in general).

 

[Firebird]

This brings up the question for me if during Deep Space Nine’s conception in Piller’s and Berman’s mind there was any kind of vague plan for what they wanted to do with the wormhole and what lies in the Gamma Quadrant. Was it only ever meant to bring the alien of the week to the station or did they have an original inkling of what they wanted to do with it on a larger scale at some point?

And what about the prophets and Sisko’s role as their emissary? Rewatching the show I’m always taken aback by how little either of those matter in the first couple of seasons before they decided to do something interesting with the emissary thing.

I guess in the beginning of the show their mindset was much more rooted in (at that time common) episodic, self-contained storytelling and they just didn’t think of “arcs”. Considering how open-ended their concepts often were it’s kind of mind-blowing how well everything fits together looked at as a whole. I mean, it’s so interesting that when they dropped the name “Dominion” as early as the episode “Rules of Acquisition” they had no idea what exactly it would even be or that they only came up with the idea that the Founders would be Odo’s people between seasons two and three. Flying by the seat of their pants really worked out for this kind of writers room.

From the various interviews I've read/seen over the years, I've gotten the impression they were making things up as they went along, only settling into stories and arcs at the start of each season.