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My gripe with Xena/Hercules

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E

EJA

Fleet Captain
Although I sometimes do like to watch some episodes of the shows Xena: Warrior Princess and Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, I've never really been able to get that much into them, if you know what I mean. I think one of the reasons is the fact that the series frequently contradict themselves in regards to what time period they're set in; in one episode Xena or Hercules could be taking part in the events of the Trojan War; in another Xena and Gabrielle meet Abraham and Isaac, and only a short while later help David fight off Goliath and the Phillistines!!! Xena is later established to be a contemporary of Julius Caesar, and yet a couple episodes later she has an adventure with Ulysses on his way home from Troy. In the last season, still set during the Roman Empire, Xena travels to Northern Europe and meets Beowulf!!!

And then there's the issue of Eli and his cult standing in for Christ and Christianity. In one episode a member of Eli's religion makes an oblique reference to John the Baptist as a friend and ally of their faith, implying that Jesus doesn't exist in this universe. The thing is, earlier episodes of Xena and Hercules made direct references to Christianity; there was one where Xena and Gabrielle briefly cross paths with Joseph and Mary, and one where Hercules and Iolaus observe the star shining over the manger where Christ is born. You might think I'm over-analysing things here, but it's things like this that just irk me a bit.
 
Yes, but I still don't think that's much of an excuse for such overly sloppy continuity. Robert E. Howard's Conan stories weren't meant to be taken seriously either, but at least they were consistent with one another and made some attempt to fit in with real world history.
 
propita said:
Um ... you do know that this was SO not a show to be taken seriously, right?
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Exactly. The show never took itself seriously. It jumped all over the timeline because it could. There is continuity with itself, but not with the "real world" ... You do realize Kevin Sorbo isn't really Hercules, right? Even though in "Yes, Virginia" we find out that Hercules is pretending to be actor Kevin Sorbo, and Ares is alive and well.

It was always intended to be cheesy entertainment. If you can look at it like that, you'll be fine. Otherwise, you're watching the wrong show.
 
OmahaStar said:
Exactly. The show never took itself seriously. It jumped all over the timeline because it could. There is continuity with itself, but not with the "real world" ...
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Is there? I think it's extremely inconsistent when they directly reference Jesus in earlier episodes, and then later on introduce a "substitute" Jesus.
 
I think the premise is that our recorded history is wildly inaccurate, proably adjusted by the remaining gods just to be mischievous and gain vengeance on Xena for bringing down their house.

Hercules was mostly mindless fluff but Xena fluctuated between utter tosh and pretty good fighting fantasy. I've compiled a list of decent episodes, including a few cross-overs and I one day hope to watch the series from start to finish without the dross.
 
I've only seen a smattering of episodes of each series, and I had no idea that they went around meeting historical figures. That seems ill-advised, given the goofball nature of the shows. They'd have been better off just setting the whole thing in a wacky, mythological Ancient Time (TM), and leave it at that. Oh, hell....I just thought of something...they never met Hitler or Gandhi or some shit like that, did they?
 
Python Trek said:
I've only seen a smattering of episodes of each series, and I had no idea that they went around meeting historical figures. That seems ill-advised, given the goofball nature of the shows. They'd have been better off just setting the whole thing in a wacky, mythological Ancient Time (TM), and leave it at that. Oh, hell....I just thought of something...they never met Hitler or Gandhi or some shit like that, did they?
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I think Hitler was really Alte the shaman.
 
Python Trek said:
I've only seen a smattering of episodes of each series, and I had no idea that they went around meeting historical figures. That seems ill-advised, given the goofball nature of the shows. They'd have been better off just setting the whole thing in a wacky, mythological Ancient Time (TM), and leave it at that. Oh, hell....I just thought of something...they never met Hitler or Gandhi or some shit like that, did they?
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As far as I can tell, they never met Gandhi or Hitler, though there was "The Xena Scrolls", where Xena and Gabrielle's descendants fought Ares in a vaguely WW2 era setting. In "A Solstice Carol" they briefly met Jesus' parents, but later on decided to pretend Jesus didn't exist in their universe, and so created the character of Eli and the Elijan faith.
 
EJA said:
Python Trek said:
I've only seen a smattering of episodes of each series, and I had no idea that they went around meeting historical figures. That seems ill-advised, given the goofball nature of the shows. They'd have been better off just setting the whole thing in a wacky, mythological Ancient Time (TM), and leave it at that. Oh, hell....I just thought of something...they never met Hitler or Gandhi or some shit like that, did they?
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell, they never met Gandhi or Hitler, though there was "The Xena Scrolls", where Xena and Gabrielle's descendants fought Ares in a vaguely WW2 era setting. In "A Solstice Carol" they briefly met Jesus' parents, but later on decided to pretend Jesus didn't exist in their universe, and so created the character of Eli and the Elijan faith.
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No such thing ever happened. Xena and Gabby met someone who was pregnant, and Gabby gave the prego lady her donkey.

You've said a few times that "they directly reference Jesus" but no such thing EVER happened. The mythological "Jesus" was never once referenced by name, directly or indirectly.

The writers did borrow from christian mythology, just as they did with other mythology. And?
 
EJA said:
Although I sometimes do like to watch some episodes of the shows Xena: Warrior Princess and Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, I've never really been able to get that much into them, if you know what I mean. I think one of the reasons is the fact that the series frequently contradict themselves in regards to what time period they're set in; in one episode Xena or Hercules could be taking part in the events of the Trojan War; in another Xena and Gabrielle meet Abraham and Isaac, and only a short while later help David fight off Goliath and the Phillistines!!! Xena is later established to be a contemporary of Julius Caesar, and yet a couple episodes later she has an adventure with Ulysses on his way home from Troy. In the last season, still set during the Roman Empire, Xena travels to Northern Europe and meets Beowulf!!!
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But that's part of the wackiness of it. The shows never pretended they were representing anything resembling real history. They freely admitted they were a work of sheer fantasy set in a wholly imaginary reality. They often did episodes acknowledging that the show was a show, a story they were telling. I found it refreshingly unpretentious.

And it's entirely fitting for a series based in ancient mythology. The people who created the Greek myths didn't give a damn about "continuity" or chronology. They retold myths over and over in ever-changing and contradictory ways, and they blended together separate myths from different generations and nations with no regard for realistic timing. Moreover, they often incorporated elements of foreign mythologies into their own; for instance, the cult of Aphrodite was influenced by earlier deities such as Astarte and Ishtar, and there were elements of Osiris worship and Mithraism in the cult of Orpheus. So I'd say that by blithely mixing different eras and mythologies and playing fast and loose with internal continuity, Hercules and Xena were faithful to the spirit of the mythology they were inspired by.

Besides, if you're willing to suspend belief about a show that claims that Zeus and Hera and the other gods actually existed, along with centaurs, hydras, the Underworld and the Elysian Fields, etc., then you're pretty much accepting right off the bat that it's not our reality. So complaining about a lack of historical accuracy is an odd double standard.
 
Can't talk about Hercules, but Xena is hilarious. I don't think consistency is really the point. The lack of it doesn't bother me, anyway.
 
EJA said:
Although I sometimes do like to watch some episodes of the shows Xena: Warrior Princess and Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, I've never really been able to get that much into them, if you know what I mean. I think one of the reasons is the fact that the series frequently contradict themselves in regards to what time period they're set in; in one episode Xena or Hercules could be taking part in the events of the Trojan War; in another Xena and Gabrielle meet Abraham and Isaac, and only a short while later help David fight off Goliath and the Phillistines!!!
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And how much real time was there between these events? My point being, the Old Testament is as mythological as it is historical and it's timeline is definitely mythological - not real. Yes, Abraham and Isaac precede David and Goliath in the stories but by how much is impossible to determine.


Xena is later established to be a contemporary of Julius Caesar, and yet a couple episodes later she has an adventure with Ulysses on his way home from Troy. In the last season, still set during the Roman Empire, Xena travels to Northern Europe and meets Beowulf!!!
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Granted that whatever event sparked the mythology of the Trojan War happened a thousand or so years before Caesar, I'd be more disturbed by fact that Julius Caesar (an actual historical person) and Ulysses (a completely mythological hero) are shown to exist in the same reality than I would be by the timeline.

Hey, at least they used the Roman name Ulysses instead of Odysseus.

And then there's the issue of Eli and his cult standing in for Christ and Christianity. In one episode a member of Eli's religion makes an oblique reference to John the Baptist as a friend and ally of their faith, implying that Jesus doesn't exist in this universe. The thing is, earlier episodes of Xena and Hercules made direct references to Christianity; there was one where Xena and Gabrielle briefly cross paths with Joseph and Mary, and one where Hercules and Iolaus observe the star shining over the manger where Christ is born. You might think I'm over-analysing things here, but it's things like this that just irk me a bit.
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I'd argue against the idea that Eli is a Christ substitute. They meet Eli in India where he is first believed to be an avatar of a god - this is pure Hinduism. His message of love is at least as influenced by Buddhism as by Christianity. His martyrdom is definitely borrowed from Christianity. That is, he's far more an amalgam of various eastern religions than he is a Jesus substitute.
 
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Look, if you want XENA or HERCULES to be historically accurate, you're watching the wrong shows. Their giddy, fractured fairy-tale approach to history and mythology was a big part of their appeal. Either you go with it or you don't.

Is it absurd that Gabby tells Homer the inspiring story of Spartacus? (Think about it.) Of course. But so is the idea that Xena invented CPR, taught David how to kill Goliath, and later ran into Beowulf!

The great thing about XENA was that you never knew what ridiculous, outrageous thing they were going to do next. It was wildly over-the-top . . . which was half the fun.
 
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Lapis Exilis said:
I'd argue against the idea that Eli is a Christ substitute. They meet Eli in India where he is first believed to be an avatar of a god - this is pure Hinduism. His message of love is at least as influenced by Buddhism as by Christianity. His martyrdom is definitely borrowed from Christianity. That is, he's far more an amalgam of various eastern religions than he is a Jesus substitute.
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Actually there's a tradition in India that during the years of Jesus' life not covered in the Bible, he was travelling in India and learning the ways of peace and enlightenment from Hindu sages (or Buddhist sages, depending on whom you ask).

There's no doubt Eli's meant to be a Christ surrogate, even if they played just as fast and loose with the mythology there as they did everywhere else. In fact I found it a little ethnocentric that Xena showed the very Caucasian/faux-Christian Eli going around teaching the ways of peace and love to Indians.
 
Ahh, it's ethnocentric that he's portrayed as a Caucasian at all.

I have a running semi-joke that Jesus probably resembled Saddam more than anything else.
 
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