Jedi Temple and Sith Shrine

[LJones41]

I read somewhere on the Internet that it is a part of the STAR WARS saga that Jedi had built its Coruscant temple on top of a Sith shrine.

If this is true, did the source material ever established why they did this? And who was responsible for creating this in the first place? Lucas?

 

[Ithekro]

The Jedi attempted to wipe the memory of the Sith from the galaxy after one of their wars. The Sith shrine was still a place of dark side power and the Jedi hoped to suppress it by putting their most place and powerful people above it. (I think the Sith built it during the war, when the managed to sack and take Coruscant for a time). But the war was over a thousand years prior to the Battle of Yavin.

 

[David cgc]

It was going to be a plot point in the Clone Wars if it hadn't been canceled, and was ultimately introduced into the New Canon in the novel "Tarkin." Apparently, Lucas was at least involved in the idea that the Jedi Temple was built on a site that had been considered holy by many earlier traditions, possibly including the Sith.

 

[LJones41]

I really wish Lucas or whoever had not come up with this idea. I don't know. It just seemed dumb to me.

 

[Tuskin38]

It makes perfect sense.

 

[Reverend]

The basic idea was inspired by how in the real world a lot of old churches and temples are built of even earlier holy sites, so it's hardly an unprecedented notion. I think fans often forget that as far as the Jedi and the rest of the galaxy were concerned, the Sith were quite literally ancient history. Gone. All but forgotten. Never coming back. So why would anyone need to remember that deep below the temple is an ancient Sith structure they long believed to have been neutralised?

Given the nature of Coruscant, there's probably thousands of forgotten ancient sites in the under levels, mostly walled off, buried or sandwiched between disused waste management plants and even older ore extraction facilities from back when they were still hollowing out the upper mantle.

 

[JD]

It makes perfect sense.

Yeah, the best way to keep anything related to the Sith from falling into the wrong hands is taking over yourself. Until the Sith come back and take over the Republic.....

 

[Prax]

The Jedi Temple was built upon some sacred "in tune with the Force" mountain. It's one of the last natural features of Coruscant that can be seen(By entering the temple)

Here's from "Star Wars: Complete Locations"

The mountain fills the temple and peaks at the center spire.

And here's the corner spire in which the Council sits, from "Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Episode 1."

I don't know where the idea for a "Sith shrine under the temple" idea first came from, but I feel like I've heard in the past 2-3 years that ALL Jedi temples were supposed to have been built on Sith shrines. Maybe it's a Filoni thing. The Coruscant temple is supposed to be one of the most ancient Jedi temples, and that it predates all other structures on the planet. There's also the first Jedi Temple on Tython, a lost world deep in the core that can no longer be reached, from where the Jedi originated, which is apparently canon again.

 

[Tuskin38]

According to Wookieepedia the idea it was built on an older temple came from both Filoni and Lucas, but they didn't specifically say it was sith.

"Series director Dave Filoni and creator George Lucas decided that the Jedi Temple had been built over ruins from ancient worshippers of the Force, possibly including the Sith."

This is their source:
http://www.starwars.com/news/swca-the-untold-clone-wars-panel-liveblog

Also according to Wookieepedia, this idea was also explored in Legends.

 

[Reverend]

I don't know where the idea for a "Sith shrine under the temple" idea first came from, but I feel like I've heard in the past 2-3 years that ALL Jedi temples were supposed to have been built on Sith shrines. Maybe it's a Filoni thing. The Coruscant temple is supposed to be one of the most ancient Jedi temples, and that it predates all other structures on the planet. There's also the first Jedi Temple on Tython, a lost world deep in the core that can no longer be reached, from where the Jedi originated, which is apparently canon again.

The idea seems to have originated from Filoni, but Lucas was absolutely in on that conversation.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that *all* Jedi temples are built on Sith shrines. That sounds like someone got the wrong end of the stick.
Remember that the Jedi predate the Sith because according to Lucas, what became the Sith started as a radical splinter group of Jedi. Given that at one point the Sith Empire conquered the galaxy, a more likely scenario is that the Sith took over a lot of Jedi sites (possibly including Coruscant), and bending them to their own purposes before the Jedi eventually took them back.
That's not to say that some other even more ancient religion(s) hadn't occupied the same side even earlier of course.

As for Tython, that whole thing comes from the old EU material, but the name has since been dropped in canon somewhere as a *possible* location of the first Jedi Temple (IIRC other candidates include Ahch-To, Jedha, Ossus and even Coruscant.)

 

[Ithekro]

It should be mentioned that the Jedi Temple became the Imperial Palace once the Empire was in place. Palatine taking over the Jedi's place and getting better access to the Sith Temple under it was one of his reasons for taking the palce.

 

[Reverend]

It should be mentioned that the Jedi Temple became the Imperial Palace once the Empire was in place. Palatine taking over the Jedi's place and getting better access to the Sith Temple under it was one of his reasons for taking the palce.

Yup, which totally lines up with the notion that the ancient Sith may have done the same. I doubt whatever passed for the Couruscant government after the fall of the Empire just gave it back to the Jedi, but I suppose it's possible. More likely it's an abandoned shell.

If one needs more explanation for these shared site, one might suggest that these sites are strong in the force somehow. Rather like the cave on Dagobah--which by the way also looked like it had an ancient structure under it. So it's no coincidence that these site have changed hands many times, even before the Jedi existed.

With that in mind, it's a fair bet that the First Jedi Temple (wherever it turns out to be) may very well have been built over another earlier temple. Or maybe not built by the Jedi at all, just claimed and restored by them.

 

[LJones41]

Yeah, the best way to keep anything related to the Sith from falling into the wrong hands is taking over yourself. Until the Sith come back and take over the Republic.....

This entire scenario should not have been created in the first place. It's so stupid to me. And infantile. Worse, I find it pointless and unnecessary.

 

[Reverend]

This entire scenario should not have been created in the first place. It's so stupid to me. And infantile. Worse, I find it pointless and unnecessary.

Instead of verbally flailing around, how about you present a coherent argument as to why you feel this way, or would that require too much mental exercise?

 

[JD]

As for Tython, that whole thing comes from the old EU material, but the name has since been dropped in canon somewhere as a *possible* location of the first Jedi Temple (IIRC other candidates include Ahch-To, Jedha, Ossus and even Coruscant.)

I thought the ruins on Ahch-To was the first Jedi Temple? Or is it just really old?

This entire scenario should not have been created in the first place. It's so stupid to me. And infantile. Worse, I find it pointless and unnecessary.

I think it makes perfect sense. These kind of sites would probably be very important to both the Jedi and the Sith, so I can see a constant back and forth with who controls it, depending on who has more power at the moment.

 

[Reverend]

I thought the ruins on Ahch-To was the first Jedi Temple? Or is it just really old?

In TFA it's implied that it's the site of the first temple, but other sources assert that in-universe scholarly opinion is divided on this point. It's reasonable to presume accurate records from that time are *long* gone and what evidence they have are contradictory accounts from later millennia and probably from numerous sources.
It's basically like trying to track down the origin of the Atlantis myth, only you don't even have Plato's text, just the numerous sources that refer back to it. Sometimes inaccurately, other times wildly embellished or very much open to interpretation, plus of course the veracity of the referenced source itself is dubious at best. Picking the wheat from the chaff is always difficult when it comes to this sort of thing.

Remember that the galaxy has been though at least one dark age that we know of and those are notorious for causing knowledge to be lost.

 

[JD]

I see now.

 

[Ithekro]

What is considered the first temple would change as more information is discovered about the Jedi and their origins. It has been thousands to tens of thousands of years since the Jedi were founded, and a lot of galactic wars have happened since then, as well as multiple purges of both the Jedi and the Sith Orders across that time.

 

[Reverend]

Hell, for all we know there is no real "first temple" and the Jedi didn't even start building them until over a century after the order was founded.

For a while now I've been fond of the notion that the Jedi had much humbler beginnings than the contrived nonsense from the EU.
What if they just started out as hermit monks, quietly exploring the mystery of the force? What if over time some of them became travelling scholars, going from planet to planet, seeking out, preserving and sharing knowledge of the Force of Others--and eventually all manner of knowledge-wherever they went, transcribing it on their holocrons and bringing it back to their library where anyone was welcome to come and learn.

Over time their ubiquitous and peaceful neutrality made them valued teachers who were welcomed and even sought after by commoners, Kings and Emperors alike. This lead them to increasingly serve as diplomats. Trusted envoys, peace brokers and arbiters between warring factions. Along the way they'd learnt much about the force and the martial arts so that they may protect themselves on their journeys and defend the helpless.

From here, it's not all that far from the "guardians of peace and justice" we're more familiar with. Maybe it wasn't until the Sith heresy that the order became more focused on the martial arts and their original purpose as teachers and healers began to fall by the wayside as they responded to their new opposing force.

I know not everyone would agree, but I feel something like this is more interesting and believable than an order of magical super-knights popping into existence almost fully formed compared to as we see them much later. The idea that the Sith weren't just an evil to be destroyed, but a symptom of something the Jedi had blindly allowed to fester within them for millennia. The rot that eventually destroyed them could have started much earlier than the time of Darth Bane.

I think part of the reason this line of thinking appeals to me is that when I read the 'Path of the Jedi' book a few years back, there was this one bit that talked about how a Jedi Knight can only become a Master after they have trained a padawan to Knighthood. This is something I'd not encountered before and frankly, up until that point the process had seemed very arbitrary in the expanded fiction.
For some reason that idea just seemed perfect to me. The Jedi (and even the Sith, in their way) are at their core; teachers, and they consider their ultimate trial to be the passing on of knowledge.

With all that in mind, the real thing Luke may have found on Ahch-to may not have been some old ruins, but those books we glimpsed in the trailer. Knowledge.

 

[Prax]

For a while now I've been fond of the notion that the Jedi had much humbler beginnings than the contrived nonsense from the EU.

What are their origins in the EU. As far as I know, there are only a few books about the subject that came out around 2011-12. They take place 25,000 BBY and feature the Jedaii, and describe some pretty humble origins.

Edit: Really, anything that happened 25,000 would be steeped in mythology. Thinking about our own history, we only have records going back 3 or 4000 years, and even those are steeped in mythology. In the above mentioned books(it may just be one book-the start of a series that was discontinued), I don't think they yet have space travel.

A reason I don't particularly care for the whole Coruscant "Sith shrine that predates the Jedi" is because of the Idea that when the Jedi "schism" happened, what would become the Sith fled to Korriban/Moraband, and established themselves there. The Jedi went on to establish themselves on Coruscant after having to abandon Tython. The Sith went on to create an empire, and the Jedi helped create a republic, and the two groups grew up separately. They don't know of each others existence for a long time, but eventually they make contact with each other and a series of wars happen over a few thousand years, until finally the Jedi defeat them once and for all 1000 years before the main story begins.

And in the main story of course, the Sith are trying a new strategy; to take over the Republic from within. To make the Jedi capital their capital. The Jedi can't conceive this because they are still trying to fight the Sith of old. They only know how to prepare for the last war.

Also, the Jedi were supposedly unaware that their temple was even on a Sith shrine. There's already Yavin 4, where a Jedi temple was built on a Sith shrine, and Dagobah, where Yoda went to a formerly Sithy place to hide his presence. It's just another thing that kind the sullies the Jedi's good name, and makes them look like idiots. Sure, a big theme of the Prequels is that the Jedi have become complacent, but they weren't always that way.