• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Is Odo immortal?

at Quark's

Vice Admiral
Admiral
Female founder: <....>Let them worry about their meetings, their schedules, their obligations. None of that has anything to do with you. You are a changeling. You're timeless. As am I.

So, does this "timeless" statement mean they are immortal, or simply that time isn't (as) important to them (as to solids)?

We know that Odo was supposed to return only 300 years later , so we can assume he'd at least have that amount of time to learn as an individual.

Or are changelings simply "immortal" in the sense Borg drones are: their true identity is in the (immortal) collective, not in their isolated state?

Oh, I'm not asking if they can die, since we know they can. But is death as inevitable for them as it is for us?
 
We have seen at least a couple of Changelings mature from infant to adolescent (which Odo, with all his failings, apparently still is) and then to adulthood (which Laas may have reached), but we have little reason to think this would translate to them aging after they are done maturing. The concept of an "old" Changeling never arises, separately from or even in connection with the maturity issue.

We have seen individuals die, but nobody has discussed dead individuals afterwards, so we lack any idea whether there have only ever been something like eight in the entire history of the species, or whether Founder Heaven is just as littered with ex-individuals as any Solid one.

We have never seen an individual born. The Hundred were called "infants", as was the one that restored Odo's powers before perishing. Is this truly an apt designation, or is procreation an optional pursuit for this species, and only ever practiced in order to create scouts, messengers and assorted other cannon fodder? Since Laas reached maturity of sorts, we might deduce that Changelings do proceed from infant to adult - that is, we don't have a clear-cut reason to think that The Hundred would have been a special breed, destined to die or be killed at return, instead of becoming additional individuals to the community. But that other option certainly still exists.

We do have some reason to believe in individuals as a concept, since even within the Link there is dispute. But this might be more fluid than we perhaps think: 543 Founders may go in to form a Link, but 271 or 968 may eventually come out, and yet nobody died or was born. The material and the ideas may instead mix and match in novel ways in there. Weak kids like Odo would in this model be unable to partake, and would be treated as conventional individuals.

It's difficult to think of anything to add to the pool of known. Changelings may not consist of the type of physical matter that would be subject to wear and tear and conventional aging. Yet Odo has DNA, or instinctively imitates having that. DNA is something that would unravel with time. But replenishing in the Link is an option for true immortality, depending a bit on how an individual is defined. Does its identity reside in the matter, or in some higher dimension, or does it get recycled in the Linking process, moving from one lump of matter to another, just as easily as DNA copies itself?

The only other angle I can think of for tackling this is known history of the species. Weyoun recites the story of the creature that got uplifted for helping an early Changeling, but gives no date. Beyond this, we only know the Dominion is 10,000 years old at least (according to the propaganda) and has not faced an existential threat or even a major challenge in the battlefield for 2,000 years (ditto). Those sprouting the propaganda would not have been there, so there's no telling if their specific individual Changeling gods were, or whether their great-great-grandpredecessors were.

Timo Saloniemi
 
^ Well, a quote from the female changeling I put in a parallel topic "The Great Link tells us that many years ago our people roamed the stars, searching out other races so we could add to our knowledge of the galaxy. We went in peace, but too often we were met with suspicion, hatred and violence." seems to suggest that neither she nor any of her current companions in the Great Link were personally there - it seems to be more of a collective "inherited" memory.
 
Immortal is probably a step too far, since even the Changelings appear to have some sort of biological process at work that's somewhat comparable with 'solids' in as much as they require regeneration/sleep, they can become ill, get wounded and so on.

I'd reserve 'immortal' for your extradimensional beings whose existence wouldn't appear to obey the accepted laws of physics - The Prophets, Q etc.

But clearly the Changelings are extremely long lived by our standards, and the writers' intention seems to be that they have lifespans probably on the order of tens of thousands of years.
 
^ yeah, that. Immortal is a very long time.

One other possibility is that once you renter the Great Link, your mind is redistributed along the entirely of the ocean separating itself from your body which is absorbed and redistributed. Each linking is a destruction of the original matter. I wonder what Odo is made out of and what his version of neural electrical activity is.

“Weak” individuals like Odo is an interesting concept @Timo. Maybe some changelings are more excellent than others at merging more fully. Maybe some merge so fully that they form entirely new identity upon reemergence.
 
It may be even simpler than this. It could be exactly as we heard Odo in "BEHIND THE LINES".

"One, or many."

I think the Founders are really just one single being, that gained the ability to split itself off into other beings... Female Changeling, the others we saw in "THE SEARCH", the killed ones in "THE ADVERSARY", "APOCALYPSE RISING", and "THE SHIP", etc.

Each single one represents a different vouce in its head. Think "DISTANT VOICES" when we are in Bashir's head, only on the scale of a civilization.

In that regard, each individual is either a newer perspective, or an older one.

In this way, one could say they/it is immortal.
 
Also, being biological need not mean one is mortal. Biological creatures are famed for their ability to sustain and replenish themselves; some can do that indefinitely and infinitely, as far as we today can tell. That complexity is combined with aging in many known species need not mean squat in the bigger picture: the Founders might be complex and nevertheless immune to aging.

However, it's also quite possible they aren't biological at all: Odo may instead instinctually fake having a DNA-based structure, just like Changelings fake so many things that allow them to pass for drinking glasses or fires or spacecraft or opera houses or whatnot. What exists in this universe may be but inert matter being handled by the "Changelingness" that effortlessly moves into some other realm when needed, taking things like mass and inertia with it. And a Changeling dying when this matter fries in a warp core or is crushed in a starship IDF hiccup may simply mean said Changeling has some extra difficulty accessing this universe - but may well get better later on.

Timo Saloniemi
 
So, does this "timeless" statement mean they are immortal, or simply that time isn't (as) important to them (as to solids)?

We know that Odo was supposed to return only 300 years later , so we can assume he'd at least have that amount of time to learn as an individual.

Or are changelings simply "immortal" in the sense Borg drones are: their true identity is in the (immortal) collective, not in their isolated state?

Oh, I'm not asking if they can die, since we know they can. But is death as inevitable for them as it is for us?
I wonder that too. As long as they stay in the link, and as long as it is, is that forever? Don't know how old they really are. I think one that is out of the link may not live as long?
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top