is Iron Man a cyborg + other questions

[melancholymecha]

so I just saw the first film & Im confused about how the heart mechanism thing works. Why did he build the energy reactor thingy there? also would he technically be a cyborg? since there is a biological connection to him using the suit(or is there?)
also partly related to that, if Iron Man is a cyborg would that mean that Wikus is also temporarly a cyborg when he gets in the suit at the end of District 9? b/c it needs his DNA to function?

and if youre wondering why the hell Im bringing up D9 in an Iron man thread its b/c the bad guy's suit at the end of IM reminded me of the prawn suit & b/c hey, its District 9.

 

[Checkmate]

Nah, he's not a cyborg. All the chest thing does is create a magnet that stops metal shards from stabbing him in the heart. It's not actually doing anything beneficial to him like a cybernetic implant would; it's just buried in his chest for convenience or something. Even someone with a pacemaker or even a replacement knee is more of a cyborg than Tony Stark is.

And no, Wikus isn't one either. He's a hybrid human-alien. The technology just uses some advanced form of biometric scanner that reads DNA instead of fingerprints or retina scans.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Why doesn't Tony Stark get a heart transplant?

 

[Christopher]

Why doesn't Tony Stark get a heart transplant?

He doesn't even need one. His heart is fine. It's just that there's shrapnel in his chest that's dangerously close to his heart and needs to be kept from shifting close enough to damage it. The thing in his chest is just an electromagnet holding them in place; the arc reactor is the power source for the magnet.

Which really doesn't make any sense in the modern era. In the early '60s when Iron Man was created, it was somewhat credible that it might've been too risky for a surgeon to extract the shrapnel safely, but these days it's very hard to believe that Stark couldn't get the best doctors in the world to take out the shrapnel, and then he wouldn't need the arc reactor anymore.

I think that in the '90s animated series, Stark's injury was retconned as spinal damage, and he needed a full-torso plate to bypass the damaged nerves. That was an improvement over the "magnet in the chest" thing.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Wouldn't all that magnetic energy be dangerous to Stark's body?

 

[melancholymecha]

ok but the thing that makes the suit run is implanted in his chest. It seems cyborg-ish to me.

 

[Reverend]

The suit just shares the power source that the magnet runs on. There's no cybernetic relationship between Stark's body and the suit, just a mechanical one. At most, the suit is a prosthetic.

 

[Trekker4747]

He's no more a "cyborg" than someone with a pacemaker or artifical heartvalve or some-other technological medical implant in them. Even if the thing in his chest was functioning as his heart (and not just preventing the embeded metal shards from truning his heart into a sushi platter) he's still not be a "cyborg" because simply having a technological piece of equipment functioning as an organ wouldn't make one a "cyborg."

Robocop is a far better example of a "cyborg." While, superficialy, the same as Stark, Robocop is almost completely mechanical and robotic to the extent that even his brain is augmented with cybernetic and computer components. Robocop can be programed and controlled by those in charge of him (OCP.) Tony Stark just has some fancy medical technology in him.

 

[Christopher]

Even if the thing in his chest was functioning as his heart (and not just preventing the embeded metal shards from truning his heart into a sushi platter) he's still not be a "cyborg" because simply having a technological piece of equipment functioning as an organ wouldn't make one a "cyborg."

There's no sharp dividing line, no accepted definition of how much of your body needs to be cybernetic to qualify as a cyborg. By a strict definition, a cyborg is any entity containing both natural and artificial systems. A mere electromagnet like Stark's gadget wouldn't count, true, since it doesn't actively contribute to the body's functioning, but a bionic heart would be an artificial system interacting with natural ones, and that would be sufficient to fit the definition of a cyborg, at least in a technical sense.

I mean, you cite RoboCop, but he's basically an android with only one major organic component, his brain and central nervous system. So if the term "cyborg" applies to an entity that's only a little bit organic, it should apply just as much to one that's only a little bit cybernetic.

 

[melancholymecha]

A mere electromagnet like Stark's gadget wouldn't count, true, since it doesn't actively contribute to the body's functioning,

but it does in a way doesnt it? if its not there eventually the shards will kill him.
also I kinda consider people with prosthetics low tech cyborgs(or I guess Id like to think they are.)

 

[Trent Roman]

Some people would consider any habitual reliance on technology to supplement biology--like glasses--makes one a cyborg, even if the tech isn't integrated into or essential to one's biology. I think that's pushing the definition a tad too far, but certainly the film version of Iron Man is a cyborg.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Nerys Myk]

Some people would consider any habitual reliance on technology to supplement biology--like glasses--makes one a cyborg, even if the tech isn't integrated into or essential to one's biology. I think that's pushing the definition a tad too far, but certainly the film version of Iron Man is a cyborg.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Damn, I was a cyborg for a second there!

 

[JoeZhang]

Outside of science fiction, a cyborg is simply someone who uses technology to overcome physical or mental issues - so both someone with a pacemaker and Tony Stark would be considered cyborgs.

The comic version of Tony Stark has been a very clear cyborg for about five years or so (but depending on how current storylines go might not be anymore).

 

[The Badger]

Outside of science fiction, a cyborg is simply someone who uses technology to overcome physical or mental issues - so both someone with a pacemaker and Tony Stark would be considered cyborgs.

Sorry to disagree, but that's not quite true. When the unfortunately named Norbert Wiener coined the term cybernetics, he was working on the concept of feedback. The system affects the environment, and the environment affects the system.

So a prosthetic hand would not by cybernetic unless it had some sort of built in sensors to allow the owner to 'feel'. A pair of spectacles isn't cybernetic, they do not adapt or change to suit conditions. I'm no expert on pacemakers, but I believe that they either act in a fixed patten, or can be altered remotely by a doctor. Either way, these are not cybernetic. If a pacemaker existed that could alter the speed of the heart according to the owners needs, that would be cybernetic, but I don't think they exist yet.

I'm not familiar with the comic book Tony Stark, but the guy in the movies is not a cyborg.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

He doesn't even need one. His heart is fine. It's just that there's shrapnel in his chest that's dangerously close to his heart and needs to be kept from shifting close enough to damage it. The thing in his chest is just an electromagnet holding them in place; the arc reactor is the power source for the magnet.

If you think about it, Christopher, if the arc reactor is using an electromagnet to pull the shrapnel away from his heart, then the arc reactor could also be used to extract the shrapnel from his body. Or at least pull it far enough away from the heart that the area around the heart could heal somewhat, so that chest surgery could be performed to remove the rest.

No, you're right, it doesn't make any sense.

I would say the Extremis-era Tony Stark is a cyborg; he injected himself with nanites, his armor bonded to his body, the armor hides itself within his bones, and the nanites let him tap into any computer. Tony, however, doesn't remember how to access any of that now.

 

[Christopher]

A mere electromagnet like Stark's gadget wouldn't count, true, since it doesn't actively contribute to the body's functioning,

but it does in a way doesnt it? if its not there eventually the shards will kill him.

Yeah, and if you're in the Arctic and your clothes aren't there, the cold will kill you. That doesn't mean wearing a parka and boots makes you a cyborg. I said the electromagnet doesn't actively contribute to the body's functioning. It just prevents something from getting in the way of the body's functioning. It doesn't directly participate in Stark's life processes, sensory processes, or anything else; it's just a rope keeping the Sword of Damocles from falling.

Outside of science fiction, a cyborg is simply someone who uses technology to overcome physical or mental issues - so both someone with a pacemaker and Tony Stark would be considered cyborgs.

Sorry to disagree, but that's not quite true. When the unfortunately named Norbert Wiener coined the term cybernetics, he was working on the concept of feedback. The system affects the environment, and the environment affects the system.

So a prosthetic hand would not by cybernetic unless it had some sort of built in sensors to allow the owner to 'feel'. A pair of spectacles isn't cybernetic, they do not adapt or change to suit conditions. I'm no expert on pacemakers, but I believe that they either act in a fixed patten, or can be altered remotely by a doctor. Either way, these are not cybernetic. If a pacemaker existed that could alter the speed of the heart according to the owners needs, that would be cybernetic, but I don't think they exist yet.

Actually they do. Most modern pacemakers are rate-responsive, detecting body motion and breathing and adjusting to the optimal heart rate for a given level of activity. They also often have built-in defibrillators that can sense arrhythmia and automatically correct it.

But otherwise, you're absolutely right. "Cyb(er)-" doesn't just mean artificial, it means a process of control or interaction. In this context, it basically means something computerized.

 

[Checkmate]

According to the defintiion of the term cyborg ("A human who has certain physiological processes aided or controlled by mechanical or electronic devices."), someone with a pacemaker or a replacement joint is technically a cyborg. Those are all aiding or controlling physiological processes.

You have to squint really hard to say that an electromagnet tugging at some shrapnel counts, though. Sure, it's sort of thwarting a physiological process (the body moving the shrapnel into his heart), but if you extend the definition that far, you have to include eyeglasses (aiding your eyes in processing light), hearing aids (ditto for sound), and, hell, even clothing (aiding your body in keeping warm).

 

[Teelie]

He doesn't even need one. His heart is fine. It's just that there's shrapnel in his chest that's dangerously close to his heart and needs to be kept from shifting close enough to damage it. The thing in his chest is just an electromagnet holding them in place; the arc reactor is the power source for the magnet.

If you think about it, Christopher, if the arc reactor is using an electromagnet to pull the shrapnel away from his heart, then the arc reactor could also be used to extract the shrapnel from his body. Or at least pull it far enough away from the heart that the area around the heart could heal somewhat, so that chest surgery could be performed to remove the rest.

No, you're right, it doesn't make any sense.

There's a term for it, it's not MacGuffin but something much like it. It's just there to propel the storyline. It's actual use is irrelevant to the story itself.

Anyhow, you could argue Stark is a cyborg, but only when wearing the suit. The suit itself is connected to him (via the power cell) but it's not a permanant part of his body and as far as I know, there is nothing to dictate a cyborg must be a cyborg at all times.

 

[Christopher]

There's a term for it, it's not MacGuffin but something much like it. It's just there to propel the storyline. It's actual use is irrelevant to the story itself.

Yeah, that's a MacGuffin.

Anyhow, you could argue Stark is a cyborg, but only when wearing the suit. The suit itself is connected to him (via the power cell) but it's not a permanant part of his body and as far as I know, there is nothing to dictate a cyborg must be a cyborg at all times.

I think that's stretchng the definition. If you wear a watch whose spring is kept wound by the movement of your body, does that make you a cyborg, or just someone wearing a fancy watch?

Again, the cyb- prefix doesn't just mean artificiality. Cybernetics means control, interaction, and feedback processes. A physical connection isn't enough; there has to be mutual interaction between the biological and artificial processes and mechanisms. Now, if Tony had a chip in his brain that let him control the suit, that might constitute a cyborg, but really he's just carrying the suit's battery around in a pocket that happens to be surgically implanted in his chest.

 

[Teelie]

Is it really a MacGuffin? It does drive the story but they usually are just an ends to a means whereas the thing in his chest is more than just a throw-away plot device.

I still think that you can call the suit cybernetic. It's integrated into his body. It might not be through his brain but it is through a device in his chest which itself is quasi-cybernetic but the suit itself becomes a literal part of him. He moves, the suit moves, the suit does take in information from the outside and relays it to his body just as it responds to his actions. It's far from a watch on your wrist which merely tells the time and has to be manually adjusted to do anything. His suit acts and reacts to his body and the environment around it making them essentially a single entity. I don't think a cyborg needs to be a 50% organic and 50% non-organic composition to qualify.

The suit also as I recall (at least in the movie) has a limited form of A.I. functionality inside it that allows manipulation of the suit without it causing serious harm or damage to the wearer.