Is Commodore still a rank post-TOS?

[tim0122]

So, I know the basics ranks from TNG onward are Petty Officer, Chief Petty Officer, Ensign, Lieutenant Junior Grade, Lieutenant, Lieutenant
Commander, Commander, Captain, and three types of Admirals. But in TOS they make mention of some Commodores (can't remember if there are still Admirals), but I can recall no Coms from TNG onward. Is it still a rank post TNG? Is it even a rank in the Abrams-Trekverse? If so, it equivelant to an Admiral? Just curious as I had no idea Trek even had this rank until I started watching TOS with my wife a couple years ago.

 

[Anwar]

A Commodore traditionally was the 1-Star rank for General Officers/Admiral Officers. The same as being a Brigadier General.

I don't know if the rank still existed back in the 60s, but by the 1980s it had been changed so now 1-Star Admirals were "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" (better than Lower Rear Admiral, I suppose) and the 2-Star rank (then just known as Rear Admiral) became "Rear Admiral, Upper Half".

 

[dahj]

I heard somewhere that at any given time there's 64 Commodores in Starfleet.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I believe they got rid of the Commodore rank after TOS to keep Starfleet somewhat parallel to the U.S. Navy, which had eliminated the rank. Apparently it's considered an honorary title today.

In the Shatner/Nimoy commentary on STIV, they reveal that neither one of them was nuts about Kirk being promoted to Admiral, but they both agree that "Commodore Kirk" has a nice ring to it.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Wasn't Matt Decker called Commodore Decker in The Doomsday Machine?

This reminds me of something else I wanted to ask. When Kirk took over the ship in the first movie and remained in command after the crisis was over (for a period of a few years, right, I'm not sure how many). Was he an admiral who had given up his higher rank temporarily to command a single ship. By the time The Wrath of Khan came along, he's an admiral again. I thought perhaps he would have been considered Commodore Kirk during that time frame between the 2 movies. If they had still used that term.

Sorry if I'm not explaining this well.

 

[Elder Knight]

I figured that they should have just busted Kirk to commodore rank at the end of TVH. That way, it wouldn't have needed an explanation how he remained superior to the other captains aboard Enterprise.

 

[Anwar]

Wasn't Matt Decker called Commodore Decker in The Doomsday Machine?

TOS used the Commodore rank a lot, even for a guy who somehow got that Rank without ever commanding a ship. By the movies it was gone.

This reminds me of something else I wanted to ask. When Kirk took over the ship in the first movie and remained in command after the crisis was over (for a period of a few years, right, I'm not sure how many). Was he an admiral who had given up his higher rank temporarily to command a single ship. By the time The Wrath of Khan came along, he's an admiral again. I thought perhaps he would have been considered Commodore Kirk during that time frame between the 2 movies. If they had still used that term.

The first movie took place only 2 years after the series ended, but Kirk was still an Admiral. He couldn't have advanced that far in only 2 years, so he had to have been only a 1-Star Admiral so they must have already dropped the Commodore rank by then. By Wrath of Khan it's 15 years later and his Rank Insignia by then shows he was apparently a Vice-Admiral/3-star Admiral.

Starfleet probably just didn't have a problem with letting a 1-Star Admiral command a top-of-the-line Heavy Cruiser.

 

[The Wormhole]

So, I know the basics ranks from TNG onward are Petty Officer, Chief Petty Officer, Ensign, Lieutenant Junior Grade, Lieutenant, Lieutenant
Commander, Commander, Captain, and three types of Admirals. But in TOS they make mention of some Commodores (can't remember if there are still Admirals), but I can recall no Coms from TNG onward. Is it still a rank post TNG? Is it even a rank in the Abrams-Trekverse? If so, it equivelant to an Admiral? Just curious as I had no idea Trek even had this rank until I started watching TOS with my wife a couple years ago.

Since the US Navy eliminated the rank of Commodore in the 1980s, it was decided in TNG that Starfleet also eliminated the rank. Trek reference material suggests that Starfleet replaced it with the rank Rear Admiral, Lower Half just like the US Navy did, but I'm not sure if there is any evidence of this in the show.

As for the Abramsverse, there's no real indication either way. True, Pike is promoted directly from Captain to Admiral, but since his insignia corresponds to a "Four Star" Admiral it would seem he was promoted four ranks ahead. Well, it's easier to swallow than Kirk rocketing from Cadet to Captain. But there's no indication as to whether the One Star flag rank is Commodore or Rear Admiral, Lower Half.

I figured that they should have just busted Kirk to commodore rank at the end of TVH. That way, it wouldn't have needed an explanation how he remained superior to the other captains aboard Enterprise.

Why does it need to be explained? A US Aircraft carrier can have captains on board, the CO, the XO, the chief engineer, and sometimes there can be a captain assigned to the Admiral's staff. In fact on all US Navy ships, the CO and XO both hold the same rank. Examples, on an Arleigh Burke class destroyer both the CO and XO hold the rank of Commander. There's never any confusion that the CO is the highest authority and that everyone else on board treats him or her as the superior, even the ones who hold the same rank. In the Navy there is a difference between Captain by rank and Captain by position. Captain by position overrules Captain by rank, that simple.

 

[Terok Nor]

I read about The Motion Picture being set 2 years after the series but I honestly can't take it seriously. As far as I'm concerned it was a decade later just like in real life. Whose idea was it to have it set 2 years later and was it ever confirmed on screen?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always thought of a commodore as being a senior captain in Starfleet, one who could command a starship or a starbase , but also had senior authority in a taskforce or a sector operation.

While I'd like to think that a one-pip admiral in TNG-VOY is a commodore, I also think it's possible commodore was phased out sometime prior to TNG in a case of history repeating itself. Commodore could also be more of a unofficial title than an actual rank (ex: "The commodore of the Romulan blockade taskforce was Captain Picard.")

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The Memory Alpha article on Commodore is here. They cite quite a few 24th-century Commodores established by okudagrams. Besides the TOS and TAS commodores, they also list Commodore Probert, named in subspace chatter in TMP, and Commodore Forrest from ENT "First Flight."

 

[Timo]

There's no clear indication that Starfleet would not believe in Commodores at any given era.

ENT mentions one character with that rank. TOS shows several, with appropriate rank braid for "the lowest flag rank" (one broad braid at the cuffs; Admirals of various sorts add narrow braids to that). The new movies follow the TOS braid pattern. TMP mentions one character with that rank. From there on, mentions disappear - but then again,

1) we never see people who would wear rank pins or braid that would befit "the lowest flag rank", so not hearing about them is okay, too, and
2) the system of rank pins or braid still heavily implies that there continues to exist "the lowest flag rank" - one pip in a box in TNG, broad braid in TMP or ENT; why should the lowest rank be denoted by two pips in a box (the lowest number seen)?

Certainly there is no evidence that Starfleet would use "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" for any rank or person.

The only thing muddying the issue is the first season of TNG, where the rank indicators of flag officers are confusing to say the least. The first flag officers we see are addressed as Admiral, and wear no pips or boxes, just triangular braided ornamentation on their shoulders. But by "Conspiracy", this has been expanded upon so that some Admirals additionally wear one or two pips there. So it might be we saw "the lowest flag rank" whenever we saw those triangle-only types, yet they were addressed as Admiral rather than Commodore.

Doesn't mean the Commodore rank would have disappeared. But it would seem the form of address for that rank will change.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Avro Arrow]

Certainly there is no evidence that Starfleet would use "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" for any rank or person.

Yeah, as far as I know, "upper half" and "lower half" rear admiral ranks have never been mentioned in dialogue, or even in on-screen graphics. (As CorporalCaptain mentioned above, Commodores were referenced in some graphics in TNG.)

The only thing muddying the issue is the first season of TNG, where the rank indicators of flag officers are confusing to say the least. The first flag officers we see are addressed as Admiral, and wear no pips or boxes, just triangular braided ornamentation on their shoulders. But by "Conspiracy", this has been expanded upon so that some Admirals additionally wear one or two pips there. So it might be we saw "the lowest flag rank" whenever we saw those triangle-only types, yet they were addressed as Admiral rather than Commodore.

That is what Memory Alpha assumes... Quinn is RALH, Savar is RAUH, and Aaron is VA. But it could just as easily be that Quinn is RA, Savar is VA, Aaron is Admiral, and Commodore uses some other rank device than the triangle thing.

I believe the last Commodore we heard mentioned chronologically (in-universe) was the aforementioned Probert from TMP. But Fletcher designed a Commodore pin for the "monster maroon" uniforms. I believe it was even worn by a background character on screen, although obviously they weren't referred to by rank in dialogue.

IIRC, the US is the only country that uses the upper half/lower half thing. Many countries still have an active commodore rank (including my own), so it certainly seems reasonable to me that the United Earth Starfleet would have commodores, as we saw with Commodore Forrest in "First Flight".

 

[Timo]

That is what Memory Alpha assumes... Quinn is RALH, Savar is RAUH, and Aaron is VA. But it could just as easily be that Quinn is RA, Savar is VA, Aaron is Admiral, and Commodore uses some other rank device than the triangle thing.

And either way, the system would be off synch with the purely pip-based one, whether shifted by one pip or two, so there's no harm in speculating in that sense, either.

I believe it was even worn by a background character on screen, although obviously they weren't referred to by rank in dialogue.

It would be interesting to finally spot one - the hunt has been ongoing. The Fletcher system isn't that obvious to the audience, and some might still not realize Kirk is a Rear Admiral (Good or Evil Half?) in ST2...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

That is what Memory Alpha assumes... Quinn is RALH, Savar is RAUH, and Aaron is VA. But it could just as easily be that Quinn is RA, Savar is VA, Aaron is Admiral, and Commodore uses some other rank device than the triangle thing.

And either way, the system would be off synch with the purely pip-based one, whether shifted by one pip or two, so there's no harm in speculating in that sense, either.

I believe it was even worn by a background character on screen, although obviously they weren't referred to by rank in dialogue.

It would be interesting to finally spot one - the hunt has been ongoing. The Fletcher system isn't that obvious to the audience, and some might still not realize Kirk is a Rear Admiral (Good or Evil Half?) in ST2...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Isn't Kirk's Insignia in WOK a Vice-Admiral?

 

[bbailey861]

I heard somewhere that at any given time there's 64 Commodores in Starfleet.

Good one.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ It's definitely a better Commodore joke than anything music-related.

 

[Elder Knight]

...

Why does it need to be explained? A US Aircraft carrier can have captains on board, the CO, the XO, the chief engineer, and sometimes there can be a captain assigned to the Admiral's staff. In fact on all US Navy ships, the CO and XO both hold the same rank. Examples, on an Arleigh Burke class destroyer both the CO and XO hold the rank of Commander. There's never any confusion that the CO is the highest authority and that everyone else on board treats him or her as the superior, even the ones who hold the same rank. In the Navy there is a difference between Captain by rank and Captain by position. Captain by position overrules Captain by rank, that simple.

Well, you just needed 200 words to explain it! If he had a different rank, it would have been obvious!

 

[1001001]

^ It's definitely a better Commodore joke than anything music-related.