Into Darkness: Why not use "real" Caitians?

[Phantom]

Going "full Caitian" would have been a daring move, showcasing that Kirk's appreciation for the "fairer sex" was not constrained by species, which would have added at least a little bit more philosophical depth on that story point.

Instead they did "appliance forehead and earpiece" of the week and called them "Caitians".

Wasted opportunity to both make an important point and throw in a cool bit of continuity for the Prime fans.

 

[Dukhat]

Because they didn't want Kirk to look like he was into bestiality? Or some fucked up fetish where he's into girls who dress up in fake-looking cat costumes?

 

[Phantom]

Special FX are better than that. If they couldn't do a creditable enough prosthetic job (which I doubt because I've seen perfectly fine prosthetics work all the way back to The Howling.), then they could have done it CG.

I'm not buying the "bestiality" argument. That implies sex with animals not sentient beings. Though some people probably would try to argue that, hence my comment on adding some philosophical complexity.

 

[Christopher]

I'm not buying the "bestiality" argument. That implies sex with animals not sentient beings. Though some people probably would try to argue that, hence my comment on adding some philosophical complexity.

Except that it was a throwaway scene lasting mere seconds, with no room for philosophical complexity. And they were never called Caitians in dialogue; they may have been referred to that way in the script, but as far as the finished product is concerned, they're just some unspecified aliens who happen to have tails.

Any makeup or creature design in a movie is going to go through a process where the artists do a variety of different drawings to give the director options, and the director settles on one as the best for the particular purpose they have in mind. Since the alien twins were not going to have their species named in dialogue, since they were just a throwaway sight gag, I doubt that Abrams felt it necessary to stay true to a specifically felinoid design. He probably chose the much simpler makeup because it was quicker and cheaper to achieve. A throwaway gag like that -- something that, for all he knew, he might end up cutting out of the final edit -- probably didn't warrant a more elaborate and expensive makeup job. (Yes, they have CGI tails, but "proper" Caitians would've had those and the expense of felinoid makeup, or the digital creation of felinoid features.)

 

[Dukhat]

I'm not buying the "bestiality" argument. That implies sex with animals not sentient beings. Though some people probably would try to argue that, hence my comment on adding some philosophical complexity.

I'm not sure how much philosophical complexity one needs in a five second throwaway casual sex scene.

 

[Kemaiku]

Because they didn't want Kirk to look like he was into bestiality? Or some fucked up fetish where he's into girls who dress up in fake-looking cat costumes?

And what is wrong with it if they fully sentient people?

Beastiality is what is sounds like, sexual intercourse with a "beast", a creature of 'subhuman' stature of mental or evolutionary development incapable of informed consent with the addition of it therefore being rape or abuse.

Caitians are as evolved as humans, have a functional global government, a warp capable society, have been a member of the United Federation of Planets for decades.

In 2259, I bet you any member of Caitain society is far smarter than any human alive today. If anything, if one travelled back in time from then to now, had sex with a human, that would be demeaning for them to lay with such a balding ignorant apelike creature.

They're people, judging them on their appearance is the sort of thing humans are meant to be beyond at that point. Well, Kirk certainly is.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Sulu/M'Ress stuff in the old Trek comics squicked me out, so I'm glad they went for humanoid girls.

 

[Christopher]

They're people, judging them on their appearance is the sort of thing humans are meant to be beyond at that point. Well, Kirk certainly is.

All that is true, but it has nothing to do with J.J. Abrams' judgment of the best appearance to select for a couple of unnamed throwaway aliens in a throwaway scene. As I said, the choice probably came down to budget and simplicity; all other concerns were secondary.

 

[Kemaiku]

The Sulu/M'Ress stuff in the old Trek comics squicked me out, so I'm glad they went for humanoid girls.

I had that TPB, it was cute. Sulu came across as a bigoted douchebag that entire storyline and thought nothing of constantly hurting her feelings making incredibely stupid and racist jokes at her expense.

Diversity in Starfleet my ass.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm not buying the "bestiality" argument. That implies sex with animals not sentient beings. Though some people probably would try to argue that, hence my comment on adding some philosophical complexity.

Except that it was a throwaway scene lasting mere seconds, with no room for philosophical complexity. And they were never called Caitians in dialogue; they may have been referred to that way in the script, but as far as the finished product is concerned, they're just some unspecified aliens who happen to have tails.

Besides which, there were two of them. Kirk is a pretty smooth operator, but he's not THAT charming; I'd bet even money that their/her species is a binary unit that divides a single consciousness into two different bodies (for Trek precedent, see "Binars"). Meaning he wasn't having sex with a "pair" of women, he was having sex with a single woman who inhabits a pair of bodies.

Which probably would have been pretty mundane -- if not disappointing -- for her, but Kirk must have felt like he'd won the lottery.

 

[Franklin]

If one wants to add a philosophical or ethical or moral bent to this scene, let's first all stop to remember Kirk's response to Uhura about having sex with farm animals in the bar scene in ST09. Was Kirk making a joke? You know. Just sayin'.

As others have said, it's a throwaway scene and the females are obviously humanoid, despite the tails. Maybe there are issues in the 23rd century about which aliens it's "socially acceptable" to have sex with and which test the limits of propriety, but that moment in STID was hardly the place to allude to it.

 

[Kemaiku]

The Gorn I could understand, even the Orion have the space pirate reputation to get over, Cardassians being facist reptiles, Tholians...okay I'll give you that one, Klingons you'd be lucky to survive, Bolians find us ugly, etc

But goodness forbid two sentient mammals of equal societal and evolutionary status have sex because of slight differences in body hair and limb placement?

The first one of them to make a shit flinging joke at a human and this board would melt down from the "that's racist" ranting.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The Gorn I could understand, even the Orion have the space pirate reputation to get over, Cardassians being facist reptiles, Tholians...okay I'll give you that one, Klingons you'd be lucky to survive, Bolians find us ugly, etc

But goodness forbid two sentient mammals of equal societal and evolutionary status have sex because of slight differences in body hair and limb placement?

The first one of them to make a shit flinging joke at a human and this board would melt down from the "that's racist" ranting.

I would imagine the Caitians have some pretty awesome pickup lines, though.

 

[Kemaiku]

Yeah, M'ress did in the comics.

The main problem is having someone wearing that much bodily proesthetic, that the legs of a Caitain have different joints, the tail animatronic, doing that twice, putting them in a bed covered over, then doing multiple takes on a hot set.

No one's going to do that for a few second long shot. CGI would also be extremely expensive with that much fur/hair on show as that's a real bitch to render on anything.

And even in the future, who has the time to brush that much fur off their sheets.

 

[Mudd]

Because too many people in the audience would have just laughed so hard at the whole scene that the little bit of dialogue carrying the plot forward would have been lost.

 

[BillJ]

Because too many people in the audience would have just laughed so hard at the whole scene that the little bit of dialogue carrying the plot forward would have been lost.

+1

 

[Kemaiku]

From what I gather in discussing the film here the last two years, no one watched it for the plot anyway.

 

[BillJ]

From what I gather in discussing the film here the last two years, no one watched it for the plot anyway.

I did.

 

[Kemaiku]

From what I gather in discussing the film here the last two years, no one watched it for the plot anyway.

I did.

I mainly meant the TWoK ripoff rants and that kind of thing.

 

[M'Sharak]

Going "full Caitian" would have been a daring move, showcasing that Kirk's appreciation for the "fairer sex" was not constrained by species, which would have added at least a little bit more philosophical depth on that story point.

Instead they did "appliance forehead and earpiece" of the week and called them "Caitians".

Wasted opportunity to both make an important point and throw in a cool bit of continuity for the Prime fans.

For which Prime fans, though?

I suspect the overwhelming majority are like me - watched a couple of the animated episodes back in 1973 (or in whatever year they first came to it) and weren't engaged sufficiently to stay around to see the rest. Sure, I've seen bits and pieces since, I've seen fan art and what-have-you, but I've never been so invested in the animated version of Trek that a different physical representation of Caitians is going to bother me in the slightest.

As pointed out upthread, expense is also a factor. How many fans (Prime or otherwise) are going to think that strict adherence to the TAS appearance of Caitians would be so crucial that expensive CGI dollars should have been spent on that one brief scene, at the expense of some other, more critical element of the story?

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that number would not be large. (Besides, it's not as if previous live-action depictions of Caitians have been as anything other than humanoids with a bit of feline decoration.)