INS: Oh, those wacky Ba'ku

[eyeresist]

(I posted this in another thread but thought it might attract more reaction in its own thread: )


I watched Insurrection a couple of weeks ago, and the plot definitely has some major holes, specifically to do with the Ba'ku:

Population level and rate of increase:
The Ba'ku settled on the planet 309 years ago. They have a death rate of zero, and seem to have no qualms about having children, but the population is only 600. If they started with only two people (though the scripts says they started as a "group"), and each couple had two children every 33.3 years, the population would be 1024. Maybe there is a periodic cull they neglected to inform Picard of?

Do the Ba'ku really reject all technology or are they super tech savvy?
Despite the Ba'ku's rejection of technology, they would have needed technology to exile the So'na. Either using a ship to take them to another planet, or using a communication device to convince a ship to venture into the Briar Batch and pick up the exiles.
Also, despite the rejection of technology, they identified Data as a positronic device and attempted to repair him.
(See also their massive hydro engineering works, mentioned below.)

Ba'ku are basically jerks for their treatment of the So'na:

SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.

Ru'afo makes a fair point. They tried to take over the colony (no suggestion this attempt was violent), and in response were given a literal death sentence. To exile them off-world when there are no more than 600 humanoids on the entire planet seems unreasonable. Why didn't Picard point this out?

No reason for Federation involvement except it's a Star Trek movie:

DOUGHERTY: We have the planet. They have the technology.

Why do the So'na need the Federation at all? The Briar Patch is a no-go zone that no reasonable person would enter. The Fed are new to the area (note Dougherty's line about not having fully identified the anomalies yet). There was nothing stopping the So'na carrying out their operation on their own - except that the plot required the Federation to be there.

So'na's crazy evil plot not really necessary:
Again, it's a big planet with a population of 600. What's stopping the So'na from setting up their own colony elsewhere on the planet, and enjoying that sweet sweet immortality with the Ba'ku none the wiser? Unless the space hippies have advanced satellites in orbit to warn them of such an incursion, and the tech to capture and exile them again...

Massive hydro engineering works so Data can turn a tap to reveal evil plot:
Finally: another inconsistency in the Ba'ku's rejection of technology - the massive hydro works that enables Data to lower the level of a large natural-looking lake by turning a metal wheel which is presumably attached to a massive concrete dam.

 

[Timo]

The Ba'ku settled on the planet 309 years ago. They have a death rate of zero, and seem to have no qualms about having children, but the population is only 600. If they started with only two people (though the scripts says they started as a "group"), and each couple had two children every 33.3 years, the population would be 1024. Maybe there is a periodic cull they neglected to inform Picard of?

The species, when under the influence of the local phenomenon, ages normally through childhood, but settles down to longevity after maturity is reached. So why would they breed at thirty-something already? Where's the hurry?

Also, being portrayed as harmonious tree-huggers, they'd no doubt engage in fairly sedate and measured population growth by choice.

But this is all a bit moot anyway: why worry about 400 missing people? After all, we know for a fact that a group of Ba'ku left the planet in a huff!

Despite the Ba'ku's rejection of technology, they would have needed technology to exile the So'na.

Not really. They could have exiled the technology with the Son'a! Give them the original starship(s) and be done with all that.

Also, despite the rejection of technology, they identified Data as a positronic device and attempted to repair him.

Is there a contradiction there? "Reject" just means they don't use much of it themselves.

(See also their massive hydro engineering works, mentioned below.)

And note how it represents vastly superior technology, as evident in the fast drainage. But is there a contradiction there, either? See below.

To exile them off-world when there are no more than 600 humanoids on the entire planet seems unreasonable. Why didn't Picard point this out?

Surely it would be standard fare for the UFP? They have colonies of a few hundred huddling together in a single settlement on an otherwise empty planet, but those colonies at least in TNG/DS9 possess plenty of transportation capacity, including small starships. A group of exiles on a different continent would not be exiled at all: they could pop in for a visit any day. Or could be visited by those remaining, which would be just as bad politically.

Effective exile would require interstellar separation here. Oh, less might suffice if the Ba'ku were iron age primitives, but that lie was already well out of the way by the time Picard discussed these things with them.

There was nothing stopping the So'na carrying out their operation on their own - except that the plot required the Federation to be there.

That the UFP would claim as their own this territory they cannot make use of would rather heavily suggest that they are already involved in the neighborhood for other reasons. Unless the Son'a had cloaks, it would be extremely difficult for them to get to the Briar Patch through all that UFP territory. Especially as they are the villains from the last war, in cahoots with the Dominion.

I can definitely see an "Operation Paperclip" being needed here!

Again, it's a big planet with a population of 600. What's stopping the So'na from setting up their own colony elsewhere on the planet, and enjoying that sweet sweet immortality with the Ba'ku none the wiser?

But that wasn't Rua'fo's goal at all. He wanted to see the Ba'ku suffer and die. Setting up a legit Son'a spa would utterly defeat that goal.

Rua'fo also argued that a benign spa would not help the worst-suffering Son'a sufficiently fast. That was probably a filthy lie, though, an excuse for the genocidal action camouflaging as mere deportation.

Finally: another inconsistency in the Ba'ku's rejection of technology - the massive hydro works that enables Data to lower the level of a large natural-looking lake by turning a metal wheel which is presumably attached to a massive concrete dam.

Why is this an inconsistency? The Ba'ku are not said to be flogging themselves for the masochistic pleasure or anything. They choose what technologies they use, among these being plenty of iron age goodies in clear evidence.

What is an inconsistency is that Data lowers the water surface a dozen meters in a few minutes (a feat speaking well of the engineering skills of the Ba'ku), and ends up having lowered the water surface by zero centimeters! You can easily and clearly see this from the shoreline.

But that is a self-defeating inconsistency: since the water surface did not drop noticeably, the dam need not be considered fantastically efficient or anything. What happened there would then be something else altogether. As the water level dropped by a few inches, revealing the top of the cloaked vessel, the ship apparently believed she was being told to surface, and did, ascending the remaining dozen meters on her own power.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Data turned the wheel one way to lower the water level, then subsequently (off screen) he turn the wheel the other way to return the body of water to it's original level.

 

[Timo]

Or he just turned on the faucet that sprinkled the invisible (but fully surfaced) starship with water so that it could be clearly seen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shark]

Ba'ku are basically jerks for their treatment of the So'na:

SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.

Ru'afo makes a fair point. They tried to take over the colony (no suggestion this attempt was violent), and in response were given a literal death sentence. To exile them off-world when there are no more than 600 humanoids on the entire planet seems unreasonable. Why didn't Picard point this out?

I think the solution of exiling them was probably the most humane thing the Ba'ku could've done. They could have just as easily killed Ru'afo and his compatriots, thereby assuring that they'd no longer be in danger of any further disruptions from them. While not expressly detailed in dialog, it seems pretty clear that the attempted uprising by the young people was quite disruptive, so much so that they felt there was no amicable resolution.

 

[T'Girl]

Ru'afo makes a fair point. They tried to take over the colony (no suggestion this attempt was violent)

The take over could have been by way of a popular election, with the losing side (the Baku) driving the winners and their follower off the planet. Just because the Baku don't use technology doesn't mean they can't produce it.

I think the solution of exiling them was probably the most humane thing the Ba'ku could've done.

Or the Baku could have banished the Sona to the other side of the planet, or just the next valley over.

 

[Timo]

Oh, we don't need to assume the Ba'ku to have been saints. Picard has never limited his goodwill to saints - he follows his ethical guidelines even when the recipients aren't particularly worthy.

It's just that everybody is blinded by layers upon layers of lies in this movie. No, these are not iron age natives - but they are wronged colonists. Uh, oh, except they are relatives of the Son'a! But that's only revealed late in the game, and seems to surprise the Ba'ku as well.

In any case, "exiled" is just a Son'a word for whatever happened. For all we know, those who would become Son'a simply boarded a visiting spacecraft (the idea was that they were interested in "the ways of the offlanders", after all, so there must have been offlanders for them to be interested in) and, for reasons unrelated to the Ba'ku, were unable to return.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shark]

Or the Baku could have banished the Sona to the other side of the planet, or just the next valley over.

Okay, but how do you do that without them coming back? And without the use of technology? The best way to ensure the Ba'ku their continued survival and way of life was to make the S'ona leave the planet, as it was clear the S'ona wanted to impose their beliefs on the Ba'ku and the Ba'ku felt they were a sufficient threat or they wouldn't have banished them in the first place.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Population level and rate of increase:
The Ba'ku settled on the planet 309 years ago. They have a death rate of zero, and seem to have no qualms about having children, but the population is only 600. If they started with only two people (though the scripts says they started as a "group"), and each couple had two children every 33.3 years, the population would be 1024. Maybe there is a periodic cull they neglected to inform Picard of?

The Ba'ku seemed to have attained a small degree of mental control over their surroundings thanks to the effects of the planetary rings (witness Anij and Picard entering a kind of temporal stasis to keep her alive while awaiting rescue), so it's possible that they can equally control their biological functions and prevent themselves from having children unless they're ready. And as they said, there's no rush. Alternatively and more simply, they could just use birth control.

Also, the fact that many of the parents had to exile their own children may be why there are so few children, and why they didn't choose to have more. They're still in a collective societal mourning over the loss of a whole generation of their people.

Do the Ba'ku really reject all technology or are they super tech savvy?
Despite the Ba'ku's rejection of technology, they would have needed technology to exile the So'na. Either using a ship to take them to another planet, or using a communication device to convince a ship to venture into the Briar Batch and pick up the exiles.

I imagine the original colony ship that brought them to the planet was still in orbit, and that's what they used to send the So'na away.

Also, despite the rejection of technology, they identified Data as a positronic device and attempted to repair him.
(See also their massive hydro engineering works, mentioned below.)

That was addressed in the film. They haven't rejected advanced technology throughout the lifespan of their species, it was a direct reaction to their species near-annihilation at the hands of weapons of mass destruction that caused them to reject it and live more simple lives (though not every technology is rejected, as the dam and others machines and tools were used, like you said). So they still retain all the knowledge of their previous advanced society.

Ba'ku are basically jerks for their treatment of the So'na:

SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.

Ru'afo makes a fair point. They tried to take over the colony (no suggestion this attempt was violent), and in response were given a literal death sentence. To exile them off-world when there are no more than 600 humanoids on the entire planet seems unreasonable. Why didn't Picard point this out?

It must have been something pretty significant for them to exile their own children which they clearly still loved. Either a violent overthrow or a demand to use technology that posed a risk to the planetary environment. I think given the So'na's behavior a violent overthrow attempt seems likely.

And they weren't given a "literal" or figurative death sentence. They were simply returned to their natural state of being, and could still live long, healthy lives (which indeed they did).

No reason for Federation involvement except it's a Star Trek movie:

DOUGHERTY: We have the planet. They have the technology.

Why do the So'na need the Federation at all? The Briar Patch is a no-go zone that no reasonable person would enter. The Fed are new to the area (note Dougherty's line about not having fully identified the anomalies yet). There was nothing stopping the So'na carrying out their operation on their own - except that the plot required the Federation to be there.

The Federation were new to exploring within the Patch, but the Briar Patch itself was within Federation borders, which I assume are well-monitored especially where they brush up against the Klingon and Romulan borders, as we know the Briar Patch/Klach D'Kel Brakt does, seeing as it was the site of a major Klingon and Romulan battle in the late-23rd century.

Likewise, monitoring and patrolling would be up in response to the Dominion War, and the So'na's alliance with the Dominion would make them all the more closely watched to prevent incursions by the Dominion through their space.

So'na's crazy evil plot not really necessary:
Again, it's a big planet with a population of 600. What's stopping the So'na from setting up their own colony elsewhere on the planet, and enjoying that sweet sweet immortality with the Ba'ku none the wiser? Unless the space hippies have advanced satellites in orbit to warn them of such an incursion, and the tech to capture and exile them again...

The So'na weren't simply content with settling on the other side of the planet, they wanted revenge for their exile. They wanted the Ba'ku to age like they did and they wanted to exploit the planet's resources for profit. If they can't have it, no one can.

Massive hydro engineering works so Data can turn a tap to reveal evil plot:
Finally: another inconsistency in the Ba'ku's rejection of technology - the massive hydro works that enables Data to lower the level of a large natural-looking lake by turning a metal wheel which is presumably attached to a massive concrete dam.

They're more like Space Amish, pacifists only using technology up to a certain era rather than rejecting it outright. It's just simpler to explain to an Offlander by saying they reject all technology rather than saying "we reject all technology invented after the __th century on our planet." Or they just reject technology with a violent or military use, but machines and tools like dams, wagons, and carpentry equipment are fine.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And they weren't given a "literal" or figurative death sentence. They were simply returned to their natural state of being, and could still live long, healthy lives (which indeed they did).

Hell for all we know the Ba'ku expected the Son'a to have their fun running around the galaxy for a few decades, get bored with it, come back and apologize for the trouble they started, and everything goes back to normal.

 

[Timo]

All we learn about those events is a single exchange of words after Picard and Sojef are beamed up:

Sojef: "A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony. And when they failed-"
Ru'afo: "And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly."

There's no retort to the accusation. Is it even close to the truth, or not? We have no real way of telling. (Although "to die slowly" sounds the opposite of the obvious: exile would mean them dying quickly while the Ba'ku on the planet are the ones dying slowly!)

Who were the Son'a who subjugated the two slave species and made Ketracel White for the Dominion during the war? Were they these twice-exiled youngsters? Or the original Son'a, the techno-doomed culture from which the Ba'ku had fled? Did the original Son'a already die out, or do they live so far away as not to be a factor, or a resource for Ru'afo to go back to? Were they a Gamma Quadrant culture, a Dominion subject or ally, and for that reason in possession of the secrets of Ketracel White? That part of the exodus story is left undiscussed in the movie, or elsewhere.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

Either way, they can't have been called the Son'a or the Ba'ku would have recognized the name, and their children once they encountered them face to face. It wasn't until Dr. Crusher identified them as the same species that Anij looked around her and began to recognize the children that had left so long ago.

And I remember the Ba'ku saying that the Son'a survivors could stay on the Ba'ku world, and rejoin their people. Indeed, we are shown one of them doing just that.

 

[T'Girl]

And that one would die in short order, the natural radiation that the surface of the planet receives isn't strong enought to prevent his death.

 

[Shark]

I think the meaning of the line "To die slowly" means that their exile would cause them to age normally.

 

[InklingStar]

The writers did not want us to think too hard about the moral quandary in this movie. In the third TOS movie, Kirk and crew turn renegade to save their friend, going out on a limb against authority and rationality, and they pay the price. In the third TNG movie, Picard and crew turn renegade in what is set up as an obvious choice, the peaceful idyllic innocent pretty people against the ugly murderers backed by insufferable Federation bureaucrats.

The Ba'ku were not written very coherently, in my opinion. They were a strawman macguffin, whose only purpose was to provide an easy choice for Picard to turn renegade for.

 

[T'Girl]

the peaceful idyllic innocent pretty people against the ugly murderers

Yet it was the "ugly" monsters who were going to give billion of people access to a new important medical discovery, and the "beautiful" monsters who would withhold that discovery.

So in reality, who were the monsters?

 

[Shark]

^ At the cost of a planet and it's Eco-system.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

the peaceful idyllic innocent pretty people against the ugly murderers

Yet it was the "ugly" monsters who were going to give billion of people access to a new important medical discovery,

Yeah, but from the sounds of it only the Son'a and the Federation were getting to use it, so accusing the Ba'ku of hording seams hypocritical.

Especially since the average human life span in the 24th century seems to be around 140.

 

[T'Girl]

Especially since the Federation can't fix some medical problems (like Geordi's eye sight), but the radiation can.

How many people in the Federation are blind, dependent on headache inducing prosthesis. Maybe they'd like to have natural vision.

so accusing the Ba'ku of hording seams hypocritical

Having the radiation be for the exclusive benefit of 600 people is the same as having it be available to multiple billions ... really?

 

[eyeresist]

The species, when under the influence of the local phenomenon, ages normally through childhood, but settles down to longevity after maturity is reached. So why would they breed at thirty-something already? Where's the hurry?

But we know they breed because we see a lot of kids in the movie.

But this is all a bit moot anyway: why worry about 400 missing people? After all, we know for a fact that a group of Ba'ku left the planet in a huff!

No, they were exiled, remember?

In any case, "exiled" is just a Son'a word for whatever happened. For all we know, those who would become Son'a simply boarded a visiting spacecraft

But:

RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.

The Ba'ku don't dispute this, indicating it is true.

Despite the Ba'ku's rejection of technology, they would have needed technology to exile the So'na.

Not really. They could have exiled the technology with the Son'a! Give them the original starship(s) and be done with all that.

Interesting idea.

Effective exile would require interstellar separation here.

Debatable. The So'na tried to take over the Ba'ku colony, but why would they try again if they now had their own colony? And as indicated by my mention of Picard, off-planet exile has a moral aspect that isn't acknowledged by the film, because exiling them from the home planet is arguably cruel, unusual, and unnecessary, and because it will cause them to die.

That the UFP would claim as their own this territory they cannot make use of would rather heavily suggest that they are already involved in the neighborhood for other reasons. Unless the Son'a had cloaks, it would be extremely difficult for them to get to the Briar Patch through all that UFP territory.

I think the territory falls within Fed space rather than having been actively "claimed". There's all sorts of traffic through Fed space, and unless there's evidence the So'na have malicious intent they can't be stopped.

Rua'fo also argued that a benign spa would not help the worst-suffering Son'a sufficiently fast. That was probably a filthy lie, though, an excuse for the genocidal action camouflaging as mere deportation.

Yes, Doughterty says "It would take ten years of normal exposure to begin to reverse their condition. Some of them won't survive that long."
But considering Worf is progressing through puberty backwards, and GEORDI'S EYES HAVE GROWN BACK, this is obviously untrue. Based on the experience of the Enterprise crew, the So'na's decrepitude should reverse immediately and rapidly. I think it was just an error on the writer's part, rather than evidence of deception.

SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.

Ru'afo makes a fair point. They tried to take over the colony (no suggestion this attempt was violent), and in response were given a literal death sentence. To exile them off-world when there are no more than 600 humanoids on the entire planet seems unreasonable. Why didn't Picard point this out?

It must have been something pretty significant for them to exile their own children which they clearly still loved. Either a violent overthrow or a demand to use technology that posed a risk to the planetary environment.

Why don't the Ba'ku say anything about this then? Ru'afo's intention here is obviously to point out the unneeded harshness of the punishment compared to the crime, and no-one contradicts him.

And they weren't given a "literal" or figurative death sentence. They were simply returned to their natural state of being, and could still live long, healthy lives (which indeed they did).

You could make the same argument for removing a criminal's pacemaker. Doesn't make it right.

The So'na weren't simply content with settling on the other side of the planet, they wanted revenge for their exile. They wanted the Ba'ku to age like they did

If the So'na hadn't been exiled from the planet, then there would be no need for revenge re mortality.