If Mariner was a man, we’d all hate her.

[Death Ray]

I’ve been trying to resist saying this (and I’m sure others have introduced this topic long ago), but despite my best efforts to like Mariner, I think we’ve got a Mary Sue problem here. I just cannot warm up to this character.


It finally clicked for me when I realized that the only thing about Mariner that is vulnerable, and therefor relatable, is the fact that she’s a woman. But ignore that fact and really, isn’t she just a douchey jock?


This has nothing to do with her being hyper-competent and agro, but the fact that she is all this and our lead. Being self-assured, strong, good at everything (except staying out of trouble, wokka wokka!) is perfect for a side character, but leaves you with nothing to connect to in your protagonist. Even when we adjust for the fact that comedy is allowed to break rules, comedy is at its best when the your lead is the one on the receiving end of the cream pie, not the one who it takes three people to hold back when she wants to get into a bar fight.


All of Mariner’s frustrations come from the fact that she is literally too awesome for her own good and it makes her arrogant. Her only reversals come from tripping over her dick, not from others putting obstacles in her way.


These traits are reinforced by the fact that her sidekick (Boimler) is exactly who Mariner ought to be: a wuss and a climber who can’t catch a break. Mariner routinely shows up Boimler, and often not in a very friendly way. Boimler, for his part, has supposedly been taken under Mariner’s wing, but there is almost no sister/brother energy in their relationship, to say nothing of sexual tension. (This last one is probably the worst offense. They don’t have to hook up, but Christ, at least give me some teasing!)


Finally there is Tendi and Rutherford, who in many ways are props to shore up Mariner’s ego. Both have whiny voices, and Rutherford (as the other man), is also a sexual neuter in this dynamic. Neither one conflicts with Mariner, and so Mariner is the leader by default without having had to actually earn it.


Because Mariner gets the best lines, I’ve tried to measure her based on the comedy alone. But comedy requires characters with a range of personalities and hierarchies to navigate. Mariner is on top and she knows it. She doesn’t have room to grow, has no will they/won’t they chemistry with Boimler (Didn’t they just introduce that she’s at least bi? Talk about cuttin’ that guys nuts off even more!), and is not even competitive even with the other female character in the group. I know this is Star Trek TNG, where we all get along, but humor requires friction.

 

[DaveyNY]

...I think we’ve got a Mary Sue problem here...

She can't be a "Mary Sue" since she fails more often than not, even if it is on purpose.
Also, Lower Decks is not always told from her point of view, which is another requirement of being a "Mary Sue".

You might want to look up the definition of that phrase before tossing it out there.

Finally, it's more than a bit misogynistic to be dissing a character just because she's a woman.

While you may not have intended to go there, you might want to rephrase your entire opening premise.
(though your whole post throws shades of being anti-woman in your thoughts and I'm not sure if you even realize it)

 

[KennyB]

This really seems like a “you” problem more than anything else. You don’t like Mariner because she’s a woman. You can try to rope others in and justify your opinion, but when it comes down to it, it’s just that. Your opinion.

While Mariner isn’t my favorite she doesn’t “bother” me in anyway. It’s a quirky, fun, CARTOON full of callbacks and Easter eggs and winks.

 

[Death Ray]

She can't be a "Mary Sue" since she fails more often than not, even if it is on purpose.
Also, Lower Decks is not always told from her point of view, which is another requirement of being a "Mary Sue".

You might want to look up the definition of that phrase before tossing it out there.

Finally, it's more than a bit misogynistic to be dissing a character just because she's a woman.

While you may not have intended to go there, you might want to rephrase your entire opening premise.
(though your whole post throws shades of being anti-woman in your thoughts and I'm not sure if you even realize it)

There's always a risk of evoking a "misogyny" charge when discussing gender, but in this case it is relevant, because my thesis is that if we swapped Mariner for, say, Ransom-- kept all her character traits intact but deposited them on him-- he would be an extremely unrelatable character. In fact, we would would be kind of a bully.

(Also: An ur-Mary Sue only actually exists in theory, or in fan fics. A working Mary Sue does not have to be the ONLY character who gets the spotlight. They just have to be the lead, and a little too perfect.)

 

[DaveyNY]

There's always a risk of evoking a "misogyny" charge when discussing gender,

It's only relevant to you, and that's because you wish to dismiss the character as being Female in nature.

Dude you really need to let it go, your reasoning isn't going to fly.
(and now I'm quite sure you knew exactly what you were suggesting in your opening post)

I'm definitely no psychologist, but even I can see that you are a somewhat intelligent person who may have a deep-seated dislike for assertive women.

You might want to work on that.

 

[Death Ray]

This really seems like a “you” problem more than anything else. You don’t like Mariner because she’s a woman.

I in no way said or implied that I don't like her because she is a woman, I am saying that they way she is written, her being a woman is the only thing keeping her from being an unlikeable protagonist. I think she is an example of doing the "strong female lead" dirty.

Let's use Leela and Fry as a contrast to Mariner and Boimler. There are a lot of similarities in their characters, but Mariner and Boimler have inverted the formula in the worst ways.

Mariner is strong (both physically and in confidence) and competent, and so is Leela. Both are in charge as well. But Mariner is in charge because all characters around her simply fall in line. Leela is in charge because she is the Moe Howard to a crew of stooges. Leela has a soft side which she demonstrates often, but Mariner just gets tougher and tougher. There is an unrequited romance (sometimes) between Leela and her doofus sidekick Fry, which makes us feel warmly to both of them. There is a barely concealed contempt between Mariner and her doofus sidekick Boimler that never seems to ebb.

I could go on.

You can try to rope others in and justify your opinion, but when it comes down to it, it’s just that. Your opinion.

Correct, just as yours is yours. But I think more than a few people agree that the comedy on this show needs to be punched up, and that would require, perhaps, Boimler being more of a foil to Mariner, and Mariner being more relatable with more obstacles to overcome. (Also, to be frank: If there was a sexual dynamic between Ransom and Mariner like the one there is between Mariner and Boimler, we'd think Ransom was a chauvinist. By extension, I think Mariner is written as a nutcrusher.)

 

[Death Ray]

It's only relevant to you, and that's because you wish to dismiss the character as being Female in nature.

If anything, I think I was saying the exact opposite.

I'm definitely no psychologist, but even I can see that you are a somewhat intelligent person who may have a deep-seated dislike for assertive women.

That, again, is my point: she is not merely "assertive". She is already fully realized. There isn't really much growing for her to do, because, as her character is written, the only thing keeping her from being captain right now is her short temper. Otherwise: Mariner is a master of all skills, is stronger than a Klingon, and a natural leader. That is why all the supporting characters really aren't "supporting". They just exist for Mariner to stand above. And then, since she is written so masculine, the two male characters have completely unrealistic relationships with her. Rutherford receives neither her love nor her scorn, and Boimler gets non-stop titty twisters. This would be fine if EVERYONE was giving Boimler the business, but Boimler only really has a relationship with Mariner, and all he gets from her is shit.

So please deal with the point I raised in the first place: Would we be giving a too-perfect character like this a pass if she WASN'T a woman? If she was a man, I think she'd quickly get on everyone's nerves.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

How about asking what we’d think of her as a male character (btw would that mean male Mariner was also bi or gay?), you’d tell us the characteristics of the “fixed” Mariner to be acceptable to you as a female character?

 

[fireproof78]

Would we be giving a too-perfect character like this a pass if she WASN'T a woman? If

Yup.

 

[Michael]

t finally clicked for me when I realized that the only thing about Mariner that is vulnerable, and therefor relatable, is the fact that she’s a woman.

Putting the sexism of “vulnerable = woman” aside for a moment, I think you've been missing a couple of aspects about Mariner's character. It's been pointed out a couple of times in the show that she's far from perfect, lacks self-control and is her own worst enemy keeping her from progressing in her career. She's vulnerable about a lot of things and her headstrong demeanor is just a way of coping with her fears. Also, there have been a couple of moments where she was at the receiving end of the proverbial cream pie, but your reception of her portrayal seems a bit selective.

Having said that I don't even know if I agree with the premise that in order for a character to be a good protagonist they need to be relatable in some way. Off the top of my head I can think of a number of characters and protagonists from comedies that don't seem to feature a “relatable” trait and yet they work in their respective shows.

Putting on my moderator's hat I'd like to add the following: Sexist buzzwords like “Mary Sue” and concepts associated with toxic masculinity like Rutherford having a “whiny voice” or being “sexually neuter” are generally not welcome around here, as they tend to unnecessarily inflame the discourse. I would advise you to try and voice your opinion without resorting to misogynistic language or otherwise it'll not end well.

 

[Takeru]

Being self-assured, strong, good at everything (except staying out of trouble, wokka wokka!) is perfect for a side character, but leaves you with nothing to connect to in your protagonist.

That pretty much describes Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty so I reject the idea that a male Mariner would be hated.

 

[DaveyNY]

So please deal with the point I raised in the first place: Would we be giving a too-perfect character like this a pass if she WASN'T a woman? If she was a man, I think she'd quickly get on everyone's nerves.

The thing is, if the character was a Man to being with, you wouldn't even be asking the question.

You're going to have to deal with that in your own mind.

I'm done.

 

[Death Ray]

How about asking what we’d think of her as a male character (btw would that mean male Mariner was also bi or gay?), you’d tell us the characteristics of the “fixed” Mariner to be acceptable to you as a female character?

Mariner would be a poor protagonist as both a male or a female. What I am saying is that because Mariner is the quintessential "strong female lead", she gets a pass. The fact that she is female makes her superficially more "vulnerable" than she would be if she were a man with the same characteristics, but were she a man, we would probably take an instant disliking to him.

And so fixing Mariner is the same whether she is a man or a woman either way: she should not have begun as an already self-possessed, fully actualized protagonist with no perceptable arc. Remember: Among her group of friends Mariner is the strongest, smartest and cockiest, and has been since episode one. Everything revolves around her. That is the textbook definition of a Mary Sue.

 

[Death Ray]

Yup.

Really? What would be the buy-in? A protagonist ought to have a journey ahead of them. Mariner is already at the finish line.

 

[dswynne1]

If Mariner was a "man", the character would be depicted as "edgy", someone with a lot of pathos and mystery, but whose reason for being the way would slowly unfold. I think that had we, the audience, not have gotten the "why" in examining Mariner's behavior, I would agree that she is a "Mary Sue" (someone who knows everything, does everything, and is good at everything while being flawless). But it is clear that Mariner is a flawed character, who, for some reason, can't seem to grow out of her comfort zone, even as her close friends are, even though we all know she can be a competent, if not great, Starfleet officer. Personally, I predict that there will be an episode where Mariner does leave Starfleet behind, only for her to return to duty later.

 

[dswynne1]

Mariner would be a poor protagonist as both a male or a female. What I am saying is that because Mariner is the quintessential "strong female lead", she gets a pass. The fact that she is female makes her superficially more "vulnerable" than she would be if she were a man with the same characteristics, but were she a man, we would probably take an instant disliking to him.

And so fixing Mariner is the same whether she is a man or a woman either way: she should not have begun as an already self-possessed, fully actualized protagonist with no perceptable arc. Remember: Among her group of friends Mariner is the strongest, smartest and cockiest, and has been since episode one. Everything revolves around her. That is the textbook definition of a Mary Sue.

I don't think anyone is giving Mariner a pass. In fact, she is the least liked character on the show, who does her antics just to get a rise out of her mother. That is not something to be admired, no matter how competent she is skills-wise.

 

[KennyB]

And so fixing Mariner is the same whether she is a man or a woman either way: she should not have begun as an already self-possessed, fully actualized protagonist with no perceptable arc. Remember: Among her group of friends Mariner is the strongest, smartest and cockiest, and has been since episode one. Everything revolves around her. That is the textbook definition of a Mary Sue.

I still reject the idea that she’s “broken”………

 

[fireproof78]

Really? What would be the buy-in? A protagonist ought to have a journey ahead of them. Mariner is already at the finish line.

A protagonist can have a journey by going on adventures. Doesn't necessitate character change. Batman is still Batman, Indiana Jones is still Indiana Jones, etc. My favorite shows are shows like MASH or JAG, were the male character is largely capable of doing anything the plot requires of them. Still enjoy them.

I don't think anyone is giving Mariner a pass. In fact, she is the least liked character on the show, who does her antics just to get a rise out of her mother. That is not something to be admired, no matter how competent she is skills-wise.

Yeah, Mariner is frequently listed as the biggest detraction of the series, aside from if jokes don't land. She doesn't get a pass.

 

[Death Ray]

Putting the sexism of “vulnerable = woman” aside for a moment, I think you've been missing a couple of aspects about Mariner's character.

Before we get into that: Vulnerability is a necessary component of any protaganist. If they don't have a soft side or flaws then we can't relate to them. For example, Schwarzenegger in almost any of his action movies, is not a protagonist in this way. He is the lead, but he comes fully formed. His only duty is to slay, slay slay. Ripley, in Aliens, is a classic protagonist. We already know she is tough, but she is also wounded. She arcs from damaged to ass-kicker over the course of the movie. Mariner is more like a Schwarzenegger.

It's been pointed out a couple of times in the show that she's far from perfect, lacks self-control and is her own worst enemy keeping her from progressing in her career. She's vulnerable about a lot of things and her headstrong demeanor is just a way of coping with her fears. Also, there have been a couple of moments where she was at the receiving end of the proverbial cream pie, but your reception of her portrayal seems a bit selective.

I suppose they have tried to show Mariner wrestling with demons, but being your own worst enemy just reinforces how naturally awesome she is... only SHE can stand in her way! Mariner's only flaw is getting ahead of her skis by taking initiative. Being "too cool for school" is not that endearing in large doses. It's like trying to build your comedy around Maverick from Top Gun. It works in an awesome action film, not so much in a comedy.

Having said that I don't even know if I agree with the premise that in order for a character to be a good protagonist they need to be relatable in some way. Off the top of my head I can think of a number of characters and protagonists from comedies that don't seem to feature a “relatable” trait and yet they work in their respective shows.

I'd need examples.

Putting on my moderator's hat I'd like to add the following: Sexist buzzwords like “Mary Sue” and concepts associated with toxic masculinity like Rutherford having a “whiny voice” or being “sexually neuter” are generally not welcome around here, as they tend to unnecessarily inflame the discourse. I would advise you to try and voice your opinion without resorting to misogynistic language or otherwise it'll not end well.

Isn't it more sexist to say that a woman CAN'T be a Mary Sue? And Rutherford is a sexual neuter with a whiny voice. He has a completely sexually neutral relationship with pretty much everyone, male and female.I believe this is done deliberately so that Mariner will have more male energy than everyone around her, which again: allows her to be a one man band fulfilling the entirety of the male and female dynamic. Heck, you could even say that making her bi (if that is the case) is a further example of that. None of the male characters have a shot at her. But her platonic male relationships are either neutral (Rutherford) or aggressive (Boimler). Not a lot of heart there.

And Mariner she doesn't even have a realistic female relationship with Tendi, either. (For a good example of a dainty vs brusque girl/girl dynamic, I offer Katara and Toph as an example.)

 

[Tuskin38]

That is the textbook definition of a Mary Sue.

The textbook definition of a Mary Sue is a self insert character of the author with no flaws.

Who is she a self insert of? She also has tons of flaws.