...in "The Die is Cast"? I guess in a way it could have been worse - the full wrath of the Jem'Hadar before the Federation were even ready, to say nothing of the other AQ powers.
How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterated..
- Thread starter hxclespaulplayer
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Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
Nothing might have changed. Remember that the Founders aren't like today's governments. They are invisible to the vast majority of their subjects, enough so that their subjects aren't even sure if they exist and their soldiers are unlikely to ever encounter or deal with them. If they went missing what would change? The Vorta run things and control the Jem'Hadar. If they lock down the situation the Dominion machine would just keep running like nothing happened because as far as it is concerned nothing has.
Nothing might have changed. Remember that the Founders aren't like today's governments. They are invisible to the vast majority of their subjects, enough so that their subjects aren't even sure if they exist and their soldiers are unlikely to ever encounter or deal with them. If they went missing what would change? The Vorta run things and control the Jem'Hadar. If they lock down the situation the Dominion machine would just keep running like nothing happened because as far as it is concerned nothing has.
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Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
The White would not run out. If you're a Vorta without the Founders to provide restraint (not to mention clone you), are you really going to tell the Jem'Hadar that you're ceasing White production?
The Jem'Hadar would all commit suicide, but only following the utter obliteration of the Romulan and Cardassian people, with the Feds and Klingons probably thrown in for good measure. The Vorta could probably manipulate them into attacking other targets, saying it would be the will of the Founders or fabricating evidence.
The war would be difficult, but not impossible. There'd be much less intelligence from the Founders in the field. They might not have any way back to the Dominion in the first place, and it's possible that in the ensuing confusion any protocol they had for extraction would get botched.
I'd see it as a shorter affair, where Bajor would fall in a matter of days, followed by the few systems between Bajor and Cardassia, while the rest of the quadrant rallied.
The Feds would be there to defend Bajor and lose a lot of ships. The Dominion would not necessarily care about conquering Bajor at that point, or even eliminating the Federation fleet, but rather they'd want to punch a hole through the defenses.
The Klingons would dither for a bit before finally joining in. The Ferengi would sell supplies to the needy. The Breen would not join in.
The Romulans would sit back and smile, seeing as how they seemed to be on the other side of the wormhole, with the Federation between them. They'd allow as much time to pass before they came to help as they could manage without everyone turning on them.
Once the Dominion was finished, the Klingons would turn on the Romulans. The Cardassians would join in. Before Gul Dukat betrayed the Alpha Quadrant, the Klingons and Cardassians were on good terms. Their only conflict was a "minor" battle that lasted 100 years.
The unstable Gowron would likely demand Federation support against the Romulans. Worf wouldn't have been disgraced by this point, and he might resign to go fight Romulus.
The Feds could probably beg off saying they had too high of a casualty rate, but the Klingons' overall opinion of them would drop and there'd be war within a generation.
By this point I can actually see Section 31 working with the Romulans to cover up Romulan involvement in obliterating the Founder world and forming an alliance against the eventual Klingon threat.
The remnants of the Dominion would be headed by handful (if any) of Founders who made it back to their space from the Feds, Klingons, Cardassians and other infiltrated governments.
They might have some Jem'Hadar left, but not many. They'd have to turn to the Karemma and any other loyal members to supply a new fighting force. Upstart planets might revolt, and they'd have to either spend time restoring order, or just give up what they had and go into defensive isolation.
The Federation/Romulan alliance seek to take advantage of the Gamma Quadrant instability. The Feds would send aid and try to convert via diplomacy. The Romulans would try and subvert the Fed's new allies away from them secretly, as wel as outright conquering the weaker planets.
The White would not run out. If you're a Vorta without the Founders to provide restraint (not to mention clone you), are you really going to tell the Jem'Hadar that you're ceasing White production?
The Jem'Hadar would all commit suicide, but only following the utter obliteration of the Romulan and Cardassian people, with the Feds and Klingons probably thrown in for good measure. The Vorta could probably manipulate them into attacking other targets, saying it would be the will of the Founders or fabricating evidence.
The war would be difficult, but not impossible. There'd be much less intelligence from the Founders in the field. They might not have any way back to the Dominion in the first place, and it's possible that in the ensuing confusion any protocol they had for extraction would get botched.
I'd see it as a shorter affair, where Bajor would fall in a matter of days, followed by the few systems between Bajor and Cardassia, while the rest of the quadrant rallied.
The Feds would be there to defend Bajor and lose a lot of ships. The Dominion would not necessarily care about conquering Bajor at that point, or even eliminating the Federation fleet, but rather they'd want to punch a hole through the defenses.
The Klingons would dither for a bit before finally joining in. The Ferengi would sell supplies to the needy. The Breen would not join in.
The Romulans would sit back and smile, seeing as how they seemed to be on the other side of the wormhole, with the Federation between them. They'd allow as much time to pass before they came to help as they could manage without everyone turning on them.
Once the Dominion was finished, the Klingons would turn on the Romulans. The Cardassians would join in. Before Gul Dukat betrayed the Alpha Quadrant, the Klingons and Cardassians were on good terms. Their only conflict was a "minor" battle that lasted 100 years.
The unstable Gowron would likely demand Federation support against the Romulans. Worf wouldn't have been disgraced by this point, and he might resign to go fight Romulus.
The Feds could probably beg off saying they had too high of a casualty rate, but the Klingons' overall opinion of them would drop and there'd be war within a generation.
By this point I can actually see Section 31 working with the Romulans to cover up Romulan involvement in obliterating the Founder world and forming an alliance against the eventual Klingon threat.
The remnants of the Dominion would be headed by handful (if any) of Founders who made it back to their space from the Feds, Klingons, Cardassians and other infiltrated governments.
They might have some Jem'Hadar left, but not many. They'd have to turn to the Karemma and any other loyal members to supply a new fighting force. Upstart planets might revolt, and they'd have to either spend time restoring order, or just give up what they had and go into defensive isolation.
The Federation/Romulan alliance seek to take advantage of the Gamma Quadrant instability. The Feds would send aid and try to convert via diplomacy. The Romulans would try and subvert the Fed's new allies away from them secretly, as wel as outright conquering the weaker planets.
Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
Given that the organization of the expedition was based on the manipulation of the Founders, the circumstances that would have actually led to the successful obliteration of the Founders would have been very different from what we saw in the show. It might not involve the Romulans in the absence of Lovok, or the Romulans might have been content just to loan Tain some cloaking devices (like they did with the Defiant). The chances that it would have been a completely successful surprise attack becomes a little difficult to swallow.It would require more of an invasion, drawing the Cardassians more into the Gamma Quadrant, perhaps giving the Federation cause to fight the Cardassians in the Alpha Quadrant.
Given that the organization of the expedition was based on the manipulation of the Founders, the circumstances that would have actually led to the successful obliteration of the Founders would have been very different from what we saw in the show. It might not involve the Romulans in the absence of Lovok, or the Romulans might have been content just to loan Tain some cloaking devices (like they did with the Defiant). The chances that it would have been a completely successful surprise attack becomes a little difficult to swallow.It would require more of an invasion, drawing the Cardassians more into the Gamma Quadrant, perhaps giving the Federation cause to fight the Cardassians in the Alpha Quadrant.
Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
Please do go on, it wasn't too long, and I did read
Please do go on, it wasn't too long, and I did read
Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
I think the assumption here is that all the Founders would have been in the Omarion Nebula when the joint Obsidian Order/ Tal Shiar taskforce attacked but DS9 repeatedly showed that Founders were frequently offworld engaged in various acts of subterfuge.
If you take what was written later in Treklit into account I could easily see the Dominion carrying on with just a handful of Founders in charge. Undoubtedly their first act would be a massive retaliation against the Alpha Quadrant and I can't see them being too picky about their targets. Without the upgrades first seen in "Way of the Warrior" DS9 and the Defiant would be destroyed almost immediately and Bajor would most likely fall soon after. From there Cardassia, the DMZ and the western edge of the Federation would be next logical targets, after that I would envisage the Dominion would either attempt to occupy or annihilate the rest of the quadrant. I would imagine the Dominion would view the attack on the Founder's planet as proof the governments of the Alpha and Beta quadrants were too big a danger to themselves and act accordingly. The Dominion would have two major advantages, firstly the powers of the Alpha and Beta quadrants would most likely be slow to ally given their troubles in the past and secondly with Sisko most likely killed during the initial invasion, there would be no one to convince the prophets to prevent the Dominion from using the wormhole. Between their massive resources in the Gamma quadrant and new ones they would establish in the Alpha quadrant the Dominion would simply overwhelm the surviving powers.
I think the assumption here is that all the Founders would have been in the Omarion Nebula when the joint Obsidian Order/ Tal Shiar taskforce attacked but DS9 repeatedly showed that Founders were frequently offworld engaged in various acts of subterfuge.
If you take what was written later in Treklit into account I could easily see the Dominion carrying on with just a handful of Founders in charge. Undoubtedly their first act would be a massive retaliation against the Alpha Quadrant and I can't see them being too picky about their targets. Without the upgrades first seen in "Way of the Warrior" DS9 and the Defiant would be destroyed almost immediately and Bajor would most likely fall soon after. From there Cardassia, the DMZ and the western edge of the Federation would be next logical targets, after that I would envisage the Dominion would either attempt to occupy or annihilate the rest of the quadrant. I would imagine the Dominion would view the attack on the Founder's planet as proof the governments of the Alpha and Beta quadrants were too big a danger to themselves and act accordingly. The Dominion would have two major advantages, firstly the powers of the Alpha and Beta quadrants would most likely be slow to ally given their troubles in the past and secondly with Sisko most likely killed during the initial invasion, there would be no one to convince the prophets to prevent the Dominion from using the wormhole. Between their massive resources in the Gamma quadrant and new ones they would establish in the Alpha quadrant the Dominion would simply overwhelm the surviving powers.
Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
Are you saying that the Lovok impersonator would not be pulling the strings but would still be present? In order to meaningfully speculate, you must roll back the whole plot to Tain has an idea, before he even started reaching out to the Romulans. And you can't guarantee Romulan involvement without Lovok. Hell, Tain doesn't even know where the Founder homeworld is without Lovok and the Romulans, nor do the Cardassians have cloaking devices.
Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
The remains of the Dominion would go on a rampage, though maybe a few of the more cunning Vorta would be trying to get their foot in the door. The GQ would descend into anarchy without the Founders method of 'order', causing more problems for DS9, with every alien race vying for power and control.
The remains of the Dominion would go on a rampage, though maybe a few of the more cunning Vorta would be trying to get their foot in the door. The GQ would descend into anarchy without the Founders method of 'order', causing more problems for DS9, with every alien race vying for power and control.
Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
No. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. My point was the OP seemed to assume that all of the Founders would have been on their adopted homeworld when the Cardassian/Romulan fleet attacked. My point was that there would have been some Founders left (those who were offworld infiltrating other races) and those survivors would have led the Dominion in a war of retaliation against the Alpha quadrant.
No. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. My point was the OP seemed to assume that all of the Founders would have been on their adopted homeworld when the Cardassian/Romulan fleet attacked. My point was that there would have been some Founders left (those who were offworld infiltrating other races) and those survivors would have led the Dominion in a war of retaliation against the Alpha quadrant.
Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
It was a really stupid plan in the first place.
No defenses whatsoever around the founders homeworld? All the Founders in one place? Given the randomly sent 100 out for exploration we can assume there are very many off-world at any one time.
At very east enough to lead a massive revenge attack on the Romulans and Cardassians.
It was a really stupid plan in the first place.
No defenses whatsoever around the founders homeworld? All the Founders in one place? Given the randomly sent 100 out for exploration we can assume there are very many off-world at any one time.
At very east enough to lead a massive revenge attack on the Romulans and Cardassians.
Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
I think it likely the Vorta would have simply covered up the fact the Founders were dead, filled the power vacuum, and continued to control the Jem'Hadar as long as they could, with business as usual. But once the Jem'Hadar realized they were deceived, I think we would have seen mass executions of the Vorta, and the Jem'Hadar might have gone on a revenge rampage for having their "gods" murdered.
I think it likely the Vorta would have simply covered up the fact the Founders were dead, filled the power vacuum, and continued to control the Jem'Hadar as long as they could, with business as usual. But once the Jem'Hadar realized they were deceived, I think we would have seen mass executions of the Vorta, and the Jem'Hadar might have gone on a revenge rampage for having their "gods" murdered.
Re: How would the rest of DS9 have went if the Founders were obliterat
The Vorta and Gem'Hadar would lose all purpose without the Founders. The Gem'Hadar aren't loyal to the Vorta, they're loyal to the Founders. They might just rage out and start destroying things but not in an organized way, and if that happened the Fed would just collapse the entrance to the wormhole. Remember that was an option until Purgatory's Shadow.
The Vorta and Gem'Hadar would lose all purpose without the Founders. The Gem'Hadar aren't loyal to the Vorta, they're loyal to the Founders. They might just rage out and start destroying things but not in an organized way, and if that happened the Fed would just collapse the entrance to the wormhole. Remember that was an option until Purgatory's Shadow.
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