How was the anaphasic lifeform from Sub Rosa a bad guy?

[MrPointy]

Think about it. The episode frames Ronin as this being that sucks the life force from the woman of the Howard family. But Felisa Howard got to live to 100, which is not a bad innings. And, let's be realistic here, she probably had a lot of ghost orgasms.

I'm not seeing a damn problem here, Beverly.

 

[lazarus+]

He was a bad (episode) guy.

Meta before meta was meta.

 

[Christopher]

How about the fact that he was a rapist? It horrifies me that anyone sees "Sub Rosa" as romance rather than assault, given the complete lack of consent involved.

 

[Qonundrum]

Yup. The diary Bev hints at regarding all those strange fun times... this isn't really exploring new worlds or even being a cargo/taxi service in space. It's exploring something that redefines "super creepy" and the worst part is, I do not believe it was intentional. Yes, ghosts haunting people for centuries and there's some supernatural link - that's not often an overused trope. Adding in the oingyboingy unfortunately adds in something most distasteful. And I don't mean just my sophomoric euphemism.

Perhaps the ghost convinced Bev's lineage that there was romance (despite there clearly being none, or rather the opposite of romance).

If nothing else, if there's an award other than "Razzie" that could be bestowed: This is sci-fi genre's first known episode involving "gaseous creature that gets off on its victims orgasms". A trope so uninspiring that it would not be revisited until a certain BBC show a couple decades later and somehow managed to be even more dismal, in the name of being "adult" and ostensibly trying to say some message about how sex is so intertwined in our culture and without saying it's good or bad or otherwise having or being or making any point. Um, okey dokey...

Indeed, why didn't the ghost-with-that-enviable-hairline survive on caber tossing instead? That'd actually give some dramatic weight to the bloke whinging on about having to cancel it because the weather control system stopped working. (Yes, for some reason even 1990s sci-fi still used the quaint 1960s notion of weather control systems, albeit not integral to the plot...)

Naturally, given how good the following is, it needs a repost:

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I've posted it before, true, but it's so good a rewatch... I always watch it every time I make a reference to it. It's that good. That, and as it's healthier to do that than to turn this into a drinking game...

 

[Tenacity]

How about the fact that he was a rapist?

Crusher:: I imagine that he took human form and seduced her like he did me. I was about to be initiated into a very unusual relationship. You might call it a family tradition. But there's a part of me that's a little sad.
Troi: How so?
Crusher: I re-read the entries in my grandmother's journals. Whatever else he might have done, he made her very happy.

Beverly uses the term suduction, not rape.

It horrifies me that anyone sees "Sub Rosa" as romance rather than assault

I see it as romance. Ronin was flawed yes, was willing to harm others in order to survive, just don't see rapist.

 

[Orphalesion]

To me it seemed like the entity was taking over her mind to some degree. I mean if we look at Dr. Crusher's usual characterization (ready to sacrifice herself to help people in need) the idea that she'd abandon her profession to live with her creepy ghost boyfriend on "19th century Hellhole World" seems very out-of-character and an indicator that she was controlled by him.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

He was enslaving women for years with mind control.

 

[Winterwind]

Crusher:: I imagine that he took human form and seduced her like he did me. I was about to be initiated into a very unusual relationship. You might call it a family tradition. But there's a part of me that's a little sad.
Troi: How so?
Crusher: I re-read the entries in my grandmother's journals. Whatever else he might have done, he made her very happy.

Beverly uses the term suduction, not rape. I see it as romance. Ronin was flawed yes, was willing to harm others in order to survive, just don't see rapist.

Assuming a false form, manipulating thoughts and feelings for gain and harming others... that's romance to you?

Legal precedent here on Earth says that gets you prison time.

 

[MrPointy]

Assuming a false form, manipulating thoughts and feelings for gain and harming others... that's romance to you?

Legal precedent here on Earth says that gets you prison time.

So Ronin is... gaslighting Beverly.

 

[Winterwind]

So Ronin is... gaslighting Beverly.

Brilliant!

 

[Nakita Akita]

Assuming a false form, manipulating thoughts and feelings for gain and harming others... that's romance to you?

Legal precedent here on Earth says that gets you prison time.

Assuming false form. Who here hasn't done that? Maybe not to as much of a degree as going from a gas to a solid form, but yep most people everywhere have done that to at least some degree.
Manipulating thoughts for gain, probably most people have done that also.
I can't recall the episode so I just don't recall Ronin hurt others. But I'm sure there are those of us here that have hurt others also.

So a guy shows in his Shelby to pick a girl up on a date, clean shaven ( go with it here even if this isn't your particular thing/ time), wearing a nice fitting suit and tie. He brings flowers.

(He hates to be clean shaven, he borrowed the suit from his brother, the Shelby he borrowed from his dad, his mom told him to bring the flowers)
He is a big time manipulator and he is assuming a false form!

The girl walks from the house, her miniskirt looks great, enhancing her small waist. Her long auburn hair waves in the wind. She smells of lavender.
( she just bought the skirt today because her friend practically forced her. As well as the gut cutting waist clincher she has on underneath. She just touched up her dye job on her hair earlier today and she is covered head to toe with lavender scented lotion)
She is a big time manipulator and is assuming false form.
I'm sure that anyone can further the scenario in their mind and see that the manipulation, false form have and is done all of the time.
Hurting others, well, probably for a millennia men and women have been hurting others who try to steal away or harm their mate or potential mate.

I don't recall Beverly feeling assaulted by Ronin.
But it's been a while since I've forced myself to watch the episode.

 

[Winterwind]

Assuming false form. Who here hasn't done that? Maybe not to as much of a degree as going from a gas to a solid form, but yep most people everywhere have done that to at least some degree.
Manipulating thoughts for gain, probably most people have done that also.
I can't recall the episode so I just don't recall Ronin hurt others. But I'm sure there are those of us here that have hurt others also.

So a guy shows in his Shelby to pick a girl up on a date, clean shaven ( go with it here even if this isn't your particular thing/ time), wearing a nice fitting suit and tie. He brings flowers.

(He hates to be clean shaven, he borrowed the suit from his brother, the Shelby he borrowed from his dad, his mom told him to bring the flowers)
He is a big time manipulator and he is assuming a false form!

The girl walks from the house, her miniskirt looks great, enhancing her small waist. Her long auburn hair waves in the wind. She smells of lavender.
( she just bought the skirt today because her friend practically forced her. As well as the gut cutting waist clincher she has on underneath. She just touched up her dye job on her hair earlier today and she is covered head to toe with lavender scented lotion)
She is a big time manipulator and is assuming false form.
I'm sure that anyone can further the scenario in their mind and see that the manipulation, false form have and is done all of the time.
Hurting others, well, probably for a millennia men and women have been hurting others who try to steal away or harm their mate or potential mate.

I don't recall Beverly feeling assaulted by Ronin.
But it's been a while since I've forced myself to watch the episode.

We're not talking about shaving, some perfume, styling your hair and putting on your "Sunday best"... well, you are.

 

[Christopher]

Assuming false form. Who here hasn't done that? Maybe not to as much of a degree as going from a gas to a solid form, but yep most people everywhere have done that to at least some degree.

If you assume a false form to get someone to have sex with you, it's called rape by fraud.

Manipulating thoughts for gain, probably most people have done that also.

And that's called gaslighting.

I can't recall the episode so I just don't recall Ronin hurt others.

Literally the very first way Ronan interacts with Crusher is by pulling down her nightgown and fondling her after she falls asleep -- no invitation, no consent. That is sexual assault.

I don't recall Beverly feeling assaulted by Ronin.

That's the problem with how the episode is written -- realistically, she should have felt assaulted, so it's perverse that the episode pretends it was romantic.

 

[Nakita Akita]

If you assume a false form to get someone to have sex with you, it's called rape by fraud.



And that's called gaslighting.



Literally the very first way Ronan interacts with Crusher is by pulling down her nightgown and fondling her after she falls asleep -- no invitation, no consent. That is sexual assault.




That's the problem with how the episode is written -- realistically, she should have felt assaulted, so it's perverse that the episode pretends it was romantic.

But if someone fondles you, okay yea, right, if she didn't wake up, that's just absolutely ridiculous, but if you wake up and you're okay with it, is it still assault?
I disagree. If you wake up and fight the guy then it's assault. If you wake up and start making out with the guy, it's not assault.


Here's how assault seems to work.
Person from account quietly walks up behind you in the office, gently lifts your hair from the back of your neck, softly tingles your neck with butterfly like kisses, their hand gently upon your waist, and says," I've noticed you for weeks, you are so hot......"


You turn around the person looks like:
( they are not the actual person named)
Angelina Jolie
Scarlett Johanssen
Jessica Alba
Orlando Bloom
Jake Gyllenhaal
It's not assault.
You tell others in the office or you text your best friend, you are happy and gliding for the rest of the day.

Or
You turn around and they look like: ( they are not the actual person named)
Roseanne Barr
Gabourey Sidibe


John Heder
Lyle Lovett
It's assault.
(and they will be fired)
You are embarrassed, angry and maybe frightened.
That's how assault works in the USA for sure.
Other places, I'm not sure.

 

[Christopher]

But if someone fondles you, okay yea, right, if she didn't wake up, that's just absolutely ridiculous, but if you wake up and you're okay with it, is it still assault?

She was okay with it because she thought it was just a dream. She had no idea she'd been violated by an actual entity. So hell yes, it absolutely was assault.

Here's how assault seems to work.
Person from account quietly walks up behind you in the office, gently lifts your hair from the back of your neck, softly tingles your neck with butterfly like kisses, their hand gently upon your waist, and says," I've noticed you for weeks, you are so hot......"

That would be creepy and invasive no matter what they looked like. Nobody has the right to do that without an invitation.

 

[Winterwind]

She was okay with it because she thought it was just a dream. She had no idea she'd been violated by an actual entity. So hell yes, it absolutely was assault.




That would be creepy and invasive no matter what they looked like. Nobody has the right to do that without an invitation.

@Christopher We've both tried and made, to me, blatantly obvious points based on morals, ethics and the law... not much point in continuing. You can lead a horse to water...

 

[Orphalesion]

Nikita.... your messages really have very, very little to do with the episode anymore.

It's an episode about a weird entity manipulating, gaslighting and stalking someone for their own selfish needs. It's pretty clear. And as Christopher says Beverly was under the impression she was having a wet dream when Ronan comes to her bed and fondles her uninvited, that's the only reason she didn't kick him out..

 

[DonIago]

At this point I'm not sure whether I'm more creeped out by the events of the episode or by some of the comments in this thread.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Lying that you're in finance to get laid isn't the same thing as using mind control. What he did is more like using roofies.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

But if someone fondles you, okay yea, right, if she didn't wake up, that's just absolutely ridiculous, but if you wake up and you're okay with it, is it still assault?
I disagree. If you wake up and fight the guy then it's assault. If you wake up and start making out with the guy, it's not assault.


Here's how assault seems to work.
Person from account quietly walks up behind you in the office, gently lifts your hair from the back of your neck, softly tingles your neck with butterfly like kisses, their hand gently upon your waist, and says," I've noticed you for weeks, you are so hot......"


You turn around the person looks like:
( they are not the actual person named)
Angelina Jolie
Scarlett Johanssen
Jessica Alba
Orlando Bloom
Jake Gyllenhaal
It's not assault.
You tell others in the office or you text your best friend, you are happy and gliding for the rest of the day.

Or
You turn around and they look like: ( they are not the actual person named)
Roseanne Barr
Gabourey Sidibe


John Heder
Lyle Lovett
It's assault.
(and they will be fired)
You are embarrassed, angry and maybe frightened.
That's how assault works in the USA for sure.
Other places, I'm not sure.

Now you're getting into Incel territory with the "It's only harassment if he's not attractive!" argument.

Yeah, that Tom Brady SNL skit was funny, and there may be a grain of truth that some people would be tolerant of behaviors coming from somebody more attractive. That's not a defense against sexual assault, that's what a 17 year old says on 4Chan after the girl at the gym turned him down.