How strong is the restriction against using the Kzinti?

[Extrocomp]

Are the novels just not allowed to have Kzinti characters or are they not allowed to mention the Kzinti at all?

The Kzinti appeared or were mentioned in Log Four, Log Five, The Enterprise Logs Vol 4, Star Trek Maps, Ishmael, Battlestations! and Who's Who in Star Trek #2. None of these stories have any connection to Larry Niven but they still managed to mention the Kzinti. Why don't modern stories ever mention the Kzinti? Have copyright laws gotten stricter or is it just a lot harder to slip Kzinti references past the editor in today's age?

 

[Christopher]

Larry Niven created the Kzinti. They're a major part of his Known Space universe, far more so than they were ever part of Trek. It was his prerogative to use them in the Trek episode and comic strip he wrote, but for the rest of us, regardless of any legal issues, I think it would be rude to co-opt them without Niven's consent or cooperation.

 

[Greg Cox]

Christopher is right. It's not like using the Tribbles or the Romulans or whomever. Niven basically "loaned" one of his own creations--and a major part of his own universe--to Trek, which was kinda an odd thing to do, but the Kzinti are still more of Niven thing than a Star Trek thing. If people want to read about the Kzinti,they should read Niven's books and stories, or some of those authorized "Man-Kzinti War" anthologies from a few years back.

As for how, they snuck into those older books, I don't know. If it was just a throwaway reference or in-joke, maybe it was an oversight or maybe the author privately asked Niven if it was okay. It didn't have anything to do with changes in the copyright law.

As for ISHMAEL . . . if it got away with being an unauthorized HERE COMES THE BRIDES crossover, anything was possible.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

. . . As for ISHMAEL . . . if it got away with being an unauthorized HERE COMES THE BRIDES crossover, anything was possible.

You beat me to that one!

 

[Christopher]

I still say "The Slaver Weapon" isn't really a Star Trek episode, it's a Known Space episode with three Trek characters acting out the lead roles. It basically takes place in the Known Space universe in every respect except for having Vulcans instead of Pierson's puppeteers.

 

[Idran]

I still say "The Slaver Weapon" isn't really a Star Trek episode, it's a Known Space episode with three Trek characters acting out the lead roles. It basically takes place in the Known Space universe in every respect except for having Vulcans instead of Pierson's puppeteers.

I always liked the theory you mentioned once (I think it was you, at least) that it was an extended Recreation Room sequence in a program based on Niven's work.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'd get a kick out of seeing mention of the M'dok again (they were the Kzinti, renamed at the last minute in Captain's Honor)

 

[Markonian]

The Ferasans (saber-toothed Caitian augments) from STO are free to use.

 

[Timo]

It's delightfully ironic that a Trek species everybody feels obligated to silence to death has become one of the most prominent in the Trek universe. Why, the Kzinti now start to rival humans in the number of basically identical-looking sister species!

Of course, this is only to be expected. Any advanced species that feels the need to transplant humans across the galaxy will have a psyche all but dictating the need to spread kittens as well...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

Why don't modern stories ever mention the Kzinti? Have copyright laws gotten stricter or is it just a lot harder to slip Kzinti references past the editor in today's age?

I have met Larry Niven a few times. I watched him politely refuse to sign a copy of "Star Trek Log Ten" (the fan was relentless!), and Niven mentions in one of his books of essays that he felt uneasy that Alan Dean Foster got to adapt his TAS story which he saw as almost in competition with the volume of his short stories that featured "The Soft Weapon". Interesting that the proto-Kzin featured onscreen in "The Time Trap" was changed to "Berikazin" when it was novelized by ADF.

At one time, Niven and DiVono, his cowriter on the LA Times Syndicate newspaper strip sequel to TAS's "The Slaver Weapon", intended to novelize "The Wristwatch Plantation" for Pocket Books. Interesting that the kzintis' unique "batwing" ears were dropped for that strip.

When "Star Fleet Battles" RPG used his Kzinti (and Heritage even made metal miniature figurines to go with the game!), the game was licensed by Franz Joseph, and Paramount and Roddenberry had no contractual recall to stop them. It wasn't really a big problem until Niven was approached about licensing a Ringworld RPG. Around the same time, "The Captains' Honor" novel was promoted as featuring kzinti but Pocket had changed to M'Dok by the time the book came out. Things got a bit testy, I think, when Filmation was winding down and all of their back catalogue was in a state of ownership flux. (In the hiatus after TNG's first season, the tie-in licensees were specifically asked to no longer reference TAS.)

Otherwise, the references in The Enterprise Logs Vol 4, Star Trek Maps, Ishmael, Battlestations! and Who's Who in Star Trek #2 are more like namedrops, cameos or homages to TAS rather than featured aliens. When "Star Fleet Battles" came out in a revamped version as a computer game, it was fully licensed to Viacom that time, so the kzinti and Caitian aliens were reimagined and renamed.

"Enterprise" was supposedly all set to feature the kzin in a fifth season episode, and I assume they had intended negotiations with Niven for that to happen.

 

[Christopher]

Just goes to show you need to be careful how you loan out your creations. In retrospect, Niven might not have been so willing to incorporate Known Space aliens into a Trek episode. He might've changed their name and appearance and not adapted the story quite so exactly.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Hindsight is 20/20, of course. In 1973, did Niven or anyone else think Star Trek would really be a thing in the 21st century?

:: shakes Magic 8-Ball ::

"Reply Hazy. Ask Again."

 

[Therin of Andor]

Just goes to show you need to be careful how you loan out your creations. In retrospect, Niven might not have been so willing to incorporate Known Space aliens into a Trek episode. He might've changed their name and appearance and not adapted the story quite so exactly.

I saw a fascinating boast once in an interview. Supposedly, Niven only agreed to do a TAS episode if he didn't have to write for Kirk. What makes "The Slaver Weapon" so quirky is that Shatner has no lines (except the opening monologue) and Kirk doesn't not appear. It's such a surprise that there is no framing story at all. Only a 22-min script, of course, but it does help to make the episode an atypical one.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Ferasans (saber-toothed Caitian augments) from STO are free to use.

You've said that 3 times.

 

[Christopher]

I saw a fascinating boast once in an interview. Supposedly, Niven only agreed to do a TAS episode if he didn't have to write for Kirk. What makes "The Slaver Weapon" so quirky is that Shatner has no lines (except the opening monologue) and Kirk doesn't not appear. It's such a surprise that there is no framing story at all. Only a 22-min script, of course, but it does help to make the episode an atypical one.

That's largely because it's such an astonishingly faithful adaptation of "The Soft Weapon," reworking the Trek format to fit the story rather than the other way around. The original novella had three protagonists in a small ship -- the married human couple Jason and Anne Marie Papandreou and the Pierson's puppeteer Nessus (later to feature in Ringworld).

I suppose Niven could've written it for Kirk as the human male instead of Sulu, but I figured he didn't go with Kirk because it fit the story better for Spock to be in command. In the story, Jason owned the ship, but Nessus had hired it and therefore was calling the shots. Then again, in reviewing the story, I don't find any plot points that really require the human to be subordinate. So the idea that Niven just didn't want to write for Kirk might explain it.

But it does make the episode significant as the only onscreen Trek story with no Caucasian human characters in it.

 

[Extrocomp]

When "Star Fleet Battles" RPG used his Kzinti (and Heritage even made metal miniature figurines to go with the game!), the game was licensed by Franz Joseph, and Paramount and Roddenberry had no contractual recall to stop them. It wasn't really a big problem until Niven was approached about licensing a Ringworld RPG.

I'm curious about why Star Fleet Universe products can use the Kzinti whenever they want, but Star Trek needs Niven's permission.

Otherwise, the references in The Enterprise Logs Vol 4, Star Trek Maps, Ishmael, Battlestations! and Who's Who in Star Trek #2 are more like namedrops, cameos or homages to TAS rather than featured aliens.

Star Trek Maps also included a whole bunch of planets from other sci-fi universes like Hivehom, Kobol, Krishna, Mongo, Mote Prime, Pern, Riverworld and Tran-Ky-Ky.

 

[Christopher]

I'm curious about why Star Fleet Universe products can use the Kzinti whenever they want, but Star Trek needs Niven's permission.

Therin explained the former: Because there was some sort of contractual/licensing weirdness that let Franz Joseph license everything he mentioned in his book to Star Fleet Battles, including the Kzinti, and that got in the way of Niven licensing his own creations to an RPG, and he was understandably quite ticked off about that. That should not have happened. And given that, the explanation for the latter is self-evident.

 

[Extrocomp]

I'm surprised that he couldn't take legal action. The whole point of copyrights is to prevent this exact thing from happening.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm surprised that he couldn't take legal action. The whole point of copyrights is to prevent this exact thing from happening.

He probably could have, but it was very grey in the 70s, not black and white. "Star Fleet Battles", based on Franz Joseph's materials for Ballantine, was only ever semi-licensed, but contractually Joseph had the rights to his own materials (eg. ship designs in the Tech Manual and Blueprints, the text about the UFP, the founding members, etc) and to being able to sub-license out to a cottage industry gaming company. At the time, Trek was dead on TV and TAS was a children's TV show. Mentioning races in the game did little harm, and then Heritage made miniatures of lots of TOS aliens - and added TAS ones as they came along (after all, they were appearing in Ballantine/Del Rey paperbacks, and Joseph's Tech Manual and Blueprints were the same company). But again, a cottage industry, barely above fannish activity. There was no one saying, "Hey, Larry held onto the rights to the kzinti and the Slavers, you can't use those.." and Paramount wasn't vetting "Star Fleet Battles" materials. If anyone was, it would have been Joseph.

(In fact, Niven had already given the kzinti to Trek again, with the newspaper strips.)

It wasn't harming anyone (yet) - although Roddenberry took offence at a Star Trek "wargame" (hence the popularization of the term "role play game" by the time FASA came along) - but, due to Joseph's contract, Paramount Licensing couldn't stop "Star Fleet Battles". It probably wasn't even a very big movement at the time. About the same impact as unlicensed fanzines.

But... when Niven wanted to expand his Known Space into RPGs, and the "Man-Kzin War" fiction anthology series, Trek dabbling with the kzin was suddenly a problem.

Star Trek Maps also included a whole bunch of planets from other sci-fi universes like Hivehom, Kobol, Krishna, Mongo, Mote Prime, Pern, Riverworld and Tran-Ky-Ky.

And "Forbidden Planet"!

 

[Sgt_G]

In the SFB world, the word "Kzin" is never used anywhere. One Kzinti but two Kzintis. Also, one Gorn but two Gorns. And they are Star Fleet, not Starfleet. There are other examples where ADB has intentionally diverged from CBS/Paramount.