How powerful were the Talosians?

[MarsWeeps]

I loved The Cage and The Menagerie and seeing a partial history of the Enterprise and her former crew.

In The Menagerie, we find out that Commodore Mendez on the shuttle and later on the Enterprise was an illusion created by the Talosians. This shows that their powers of illusion can travel great distances.

If so, why didn't they create more illusions to make it easier for Spock to kidnap Pike? Why couldn't they have just made an illusion of Pike still in his room so nobody would notice he was gone?

After Pike's accident, did Spock somehow contact them with the idea of bringing Pike to them or did they somehow know about the accident and make the offer?

 

[Neutral Zone]

I've often thought that it was Spock who did the contacting. Spock was loyal to Pike and knew of the Talosians and of course Pikes attachmentto the girl on the planet, he knew that the power of illusion was strong that being that badly disabled could be made to disappear.

I woulde like to know how Spock made the contact as the planet was out of bounds to the Federation members.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Ironic that their mental powers were seemingly revealed to extend way beyond the border of the death penalty "no go zone" for Starfleeters, set up after the events of "The Cage".

 

[xortex]

I think their power is a sliding scale like Q's may be. Maybe the more we think about them, the more real they become. They could also be an alternate future. The possibilities are endless. The more power we give them, the more they take. Hence the danger of even thinking about them. I don't think they exist at all after they got Pike to make them off limits.

 

[MarsWeeps]

I don't think they exist at all after they got Pike to make them off limits.

Then why did Spock kidnap Pike and return him to Talos IV?

By the way, there is a great Trek novel called "Burning Dreams" that tells Pike's story and what eventually happens with the Talosians.

 

[xortex]

Well they did refer to him as Adam, didn't they? and Vina aa eve? Just too lonely time travellors stuck on some planet somewhere. I don't say the talosians don't still exist. They may but not in this dimension or time.

 

[Timo]

Why couldn't they have just made an illusion of Pike still in his room so nobody would notice he was gone?

Perhaps they did. After all, Kirk was the only one to act; the real Mendez and his staff might have continued to believe that Pike remained at SB 11.

Or then the real Mendez was with Kirk on the shuttle, but turned back when fuel ran out - and the Talosians made Kirk dream that Spock's taking of his Captain aboard happened slightly differently from how it really happened. That'd reduce the range of the illusions a bit.

And we can reduce them further, back to "The Cage" levels, if we assume Spock had allowed a Talosian aboard the Enterprise some time before the episode!

Ironic that their mental powers were seemingly revealed to extend way beyond the border of the death penalty "no go zone" for Starfleeters, set up after the events of "The Cage".

Which would nicely explain why there's no death penalty involving General Order 7 any more at the time of "Turnabout Intruder": it would serve no practical purpose. Any attempt to contain the Talosians is a lost cause already!

I wonder... Did the Talosians get the slave race they wanted? Even a badly crippled Pike might still be a sufficient Adam. But a crippled Vina wouldn't serve as Eve if the Talosians really were as medically incompetent as they claimed to be. In which case we might speculate that Vina was not crippled at all, that it was just an illusion to make Pike and pals sympathetic and unwilling to attempt a rescue at the end of "The Cage". But she'd still be old for a mother: adult when the Columbia crashes, etc. Perhaps the Talosians kidnapped Number One and Yeoman Colt after all, and Pike never noticed anything amiss because he had been sufficiently brainwashed. "I agreed to their reasons of staying behind"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shatinator]

Why couldn't they have just made an illusion of Pike still in his room so nobody would notice he was gone?

Perhaps they did. After all, Kirk was the only one to act; the real Mendez and his staff might have continued to believe that Pike remained at SB 11.

Or then the real Mendez was with Kirk on the shuttle, but turned back when fuel ran out - and the Talosians made Kirk dream that Spock's taking of his Captain aboard happened slightly differently from how it really happened. That'd reduce the range of the illusions a bit.

And we can reduce them further, back to "The Cage" levels, if we assume Spock had allowed a Talosian aboard the Enterprise some time before the episode!

Ironic that their mental powers were seemingly revealed to extend way beyond the border of the death penalty "no go zone" for Starfleeters, set up after the events of "The Cage".

Which would nicely explain why there's no death penalty involving General Order 7 any more at the time of "Turnabout Intruder": it would serve no practical purpose. Any attempt to contain the Talosians is a lost cause already!

I wonder... Did the Talosians get the slave race they wanted? Even a badly crippled Pike might still be a sufficient Adam. But a crippled Vina wouldn't serve as Eve if the Talosians really were as medically incompetent as they claimed to be. In which case we might speculate that Vina was not crippled at all, that it was just an illusion to make Pike and pals sympathetic and unwilling to attempt a rescue at the end of "The Cage". But she'd still be old for a mother: adult when the Columbia crashes, etc. Perhaps the Talosians kidnapped Number One and Yeoman Colt after all, and Pike never noticed anything amiss because he had been sufficiently brainwashed. "I agreed to their reasons of staying behind"...

Timo Saloniemi

Timo,

Not to stroke your ego, but your speculations are brilliant & quite thought provoking.

The idea that Kirk never really interacted with anyone at SB 11

A Talosians was secretly on board the Enterprise

Or the "Talosian Episode" could of actually played out much differently than any one of it's viewers could of known ?

And what ever happened to that Number one And Colt...
Somewhat simuliar to what happened to a certain doctor on DS9 or a certain Companion of late on Dr. Who

I dare say following this path, it's like uncovering a hidden history or revealing a long held conspiracy (of sorts) !

The
S H A T I N A T O R

 

[xortex]

I am suggesting that they really were Adam and Eve.

 

[Timo]

...But in that case, the time anomaly that took them to Earth's past would probably also have to do something to their racial characteristics. The famous pair would in all likelihood be of very dark complexion, after all!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[paudemge]

Didn't the Talosians want Kirk there and to see all all of the history? I think Kirk and Pike had the final say on whether he would stay on

 

[MarsWeeps]

Or then the real Mendez was with Kirk on the shuttle, but turned back when fuel ran out - and the Talosians made Kirk dream that Spock's taking of his Captain aboard happened slightly differently from how it really happened.

Except that the Talosian specifically said that Mendez wasn't aboard the shuttle:

"KEEPER [on screen]: What you now seem to hear, Captain Kirk, are my thought transmissions. The Commodore was never aboard your vessel. His presence there and in the shuttlecraft was an illusion."

I wonder... Did the Talosians get the slave race they wanted?

I liked what took place in the novel "Burning Dreams" - it has an interesting explanation of what happened afterwards.

 

[xortex]

Maybe it was an alternate reality correcting itself and starting again, rebooting. It might have been the dawn of our civilization.

 

[Neutral Zone]

I wouldn't have been surprised if the Talosians hadn't set up Pike's accident to start with. They couldn't get him the first time, too resistant and violent according to the little baldies now they could have Pike even if he look like half a dalek.

 

[Maurice]

Forgetting that the Talosians came to the conclusion that humans were unsuitable for their needs. They could easily have "swatted" the Enterprise and kept Pike, but their analysis showed humans weren't going to serve their needs. No need to do all this proposed trickery at all.

 

[xortex]

Boy, we're quick to believe aliens. Well the old saying is be offended at a gnat and yet swallow a camel. Spock proved he's a liar in two episodes at least but we believe almost anything they do because we're fascinated with them, almost hypnotized.

 

[erastus25]

Maybe it was an alternate reality correcting itself and starting again, rebooting. It might have been the dawn of our civilization.

I like this!

Reminds me of another slightly less famous and more recent show though... ;-)

 

[Timo]

No need to do all this proposed trickery at all.

Well, the need would be there all right: even if humans didn't pan out as a slave race, some other race would have to.

Perhaps the Keeper just copped out when threatened by Number One's suicide bombing, and invented the excuse of "you are not suitable for our needs"? After receiving a well-earned mental spanking, he/she was told to put his/her act together and reattempt the capture of humans; Spock, being half a telepath already, was the perfect victim for the second attempt.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MarsWeeps]

Perhaps the Keeper just copped out when threatened by Number One's suicide bombing, and invented the excuse of "you are not suitable for our needs"?

Why would the Keeper have been threatened? Shouldn't the Keeper have been able to read Number One's mind and know what she was about to do...and then create an illusion which prevented her from setting the phaser to overload?

Sure, the Talosians couldn't read through strong emotions such as hate but Number One was as close to being emotionless as a Vulcan.

 

[Maurice]

The fact is the Talosians could have created the illusion that they let them go so Number One would disarm the overload, and then create an illusion that they all beamed up, etc. etc., until they could get the weapons from them. With their level of illusory power there's no way Number One's threat would have meant anything to the Talosians were they really determined to make them stay. They decided humans were unsuitable to be the slave race they needed, and that was that.