How Federated is the Federation?

[C57D]

Given that (from Miriam Webster dictionary) a Federation is " a country formed by separate states that have given certain powers to a central government while keeping control over local matters"

I wonder how this ties in with The Federation that we see in TOS?

The fact that the Starfleet that we see is 99.9% Human and, in the first series anyway, is interchangeable with UESPA, makes me wonder if what we see is only the United Earth side of the UFP? We are just seeing one state out of many that control their own internal colonies and affairs, but have joined with Vulcan space nation, Andorian space nation etc to form a mutual defence, inter-nation trade federation.

This would also explain Journey to Babel where the various PTB that we are shown are described as ambassadors (surely people who negotiate with other nations?) and not ministers, representatives or some other title that indicates members of one big overarching government.

But, going by on screen evidence (going by the increased range of alien races from TMP onwards) this alliance grows closer and closer, until, by the time of TNG most individual nation powers are fully subsumed within?

 

[Albertese]

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it. In my "head canon" the UFP of TOS is quite loose and is more analogous to the UN than, say, the USA. But, probably due to stuff that happened in the so-called "Lost Era" of TUC-TNG, the member worlds gave up more and more autonomy and the UFP become more like the USA with a strong central federal government.

It's not unlike the actual history of the USA. Between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, the federal government was a small time situation; almost just a means for fairly disparate smaller nations (the states) to collectively deal with other nations outside of their own little federal alliance. Also, they were bound to operate within some shared limits established under the federal constitution, but were largely free to do as they pleased for the most part. But then after the events of the Civil War, federal power tightened considerably and individual states rights, while still in effect in a lot of areas, are reigned in a lot by the central authority.

I don't know what changed in the early 24th Century for the UFP, but the situation in TOS compared to what we see in TNG+ seems to be different in this area for sure.

--Alex

 

[TommyR01D]

From what we see in "Homefront" the military and civil defence issues appear to be directly handled by the President with no input from Earth authorities at all, which suggests that a planet's own government has been reduced to the status of a giant parish council.

 

[C57D]

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it. In my "head canon" the UFP of TOS is quite loose and is more analogous to the UN than, say, the USA. But, probably due to stuff that happened in the so-called "Lost Era" of TUC-TNG, the member worlds gave up more and more autonomy and the UFP become more like the USA with a strong central federal government.

I don't know what changed in the early 24th Century for the UFP, but the situation in TOS compared to what we see in TNG+ seems to be different in this area for sure.

--Alex

Yeah, I guess that TUC/TNG period will always be the"undiscovered country" for this theory, although I wonder if the gradual drive for consolidation can be seen in the fact that United Earth and UESPA seem to fade out after season one, and Federation and Starfleet takes over.

I also wonder if the Axanar event was somehow linked to the politics of the f(F?)ederation at that point in history? A rebellion perhaps? Whatever it was it seems to be a (primarily?) internal event that helped a Human and a Vulcan to consider each other brothers.

Maybe once the Axanar issue was resolved the different nations all got together to ensure it never happens again, and identified loopholes in the current structure that only deeper integration could solve. And the cautious and slow moves towards this deeper integration is what we witnessed throughout TOS both TV and movies?

 

[C57D]

From what we see in "Homefront" the military and civil defence issues appear to be directly handled by the President with no input from Earth authorities at all, which suggests that a planet's own government has been reduced to the status of a giant parish council.

Which doesn't sound like the "United Earth" organisation of early TOS. That sounds like Earth was the home world and center of a star spanning political entity.

But, obviously by DS9 the once mighty have fallen?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

From what we see in "Homefront" the military and civil defence issues appear to be directly handled by the President with no input from Earth authorities at all, which suggests that a planet's own government has been reduced to the status of a giant parish council.

There was going to be a scene where Jaresh-Inyo federalizes local Earth forces but it got cut for time. The intent was always there, though.

In the end, United Earth still has its own government. It's a Federation member world like any other. It may be the location of the capital, but otherwise has no special status. Earth sends a rep to the Federation Council, has its own government completely separate from Federation government, and probably still has a local defense force like other Federation worlds do.

(Couldn't really be any other way - if Earth's government didn't still exist, Earth citizens would have no representation in the Federation. You know, like Washington DC in the present day. )

And remember, we saw the apparatus of United Earth government in some episodes of Enterprise, and of course UE didn't - couldn't - cease to exist when the Federation was formed.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Which doesn't sound like the "United Earth" organisation of early TOS. That sounds like Earth was the home world and center of a star spanning political entity.

But, obviously by DS9 the once mighty have fallen?

The show was still developing early in season one of TOS. Not sure many references to the political and operational organizations the Enterprise served can be taken as gospel. Though one can surely head canon them into a semblance Of making sense if you squint and blur the rough edges.
Once Starfleet and the UFP were established in canon it was pretty much retroactive. Even if an artifact or two slipped through from time to time.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I've always seen the Federation as an organ that leaves local governing of planetary affairs to the planetary government, but take precedence in matters concerning interstellar relations, trade regulations / resolution of disputes, defense, maintenance and patrol of the commercial spacelanes, and management of colonization efforts. Essentially, the Federation handles all of the extra-solar affairs of its member nations. Whether that jurisdiction goes into effect at the edge of the atmospheric boundary or the edge of the solar system is probably within the purview of the local government.

 

[Galactic Alignment]

I have a strange theory that Earth was actually officially retitled the Federal Capital Planet or similar by the Feds, but we only hear it referred to as Earth out of tradition by the mostly human Starfleet crews we encounter onscreen. Not that referring to a territory/political entity by an incorrect name is unrealistic - think how many people incorrectly refer to the Netherlands as Holland, for example.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But there's no need for anything like that. Remember what I just said: The fact that Earth is the capital of the Federation is irrelevant, in the grand scheme of things. Earth is still just another Federation member world. It's not "more important" than any of the rest of them, it still has its own government, and there is literally no reason for it not to.

Just ask any Canadian if you don't believe me. They've managed quite well to have their capital in Ottawa, haven't they? Yet Ottawa is still just another Canadian city. Just kick that up a few levels...

 

[Nerys Myk]

^ But there's no need for anything like that. Remember what I just said: The fact that Earth is the capital of the Federation is irrelevant, in the grand scheme of things. Earth is still just another Federation member world. It's not "more important" than any of the rest of them, it still has its own government, and there is literally no reason for it not to.

Just ask any Canadian if you don't believe me. They've managed quite well to have their capital in Ottawa, haven't they? Yet Ottawa is still just another Canadian city. Just kick that up a few levels...

"Blame Terra"?

 

[Tenacity]

Given that (from Miriam Webster dictionary) a Federation is " a country formed by separate states that have given certain powers to a central government while keeping control over local matters"

Dictionaries also give;
the act of federating or uniting in a league,
refers to a league or confederacy.

Captain Kirk said it was a alliance (not a political state), and the TNG writers and directors guild also called the federation a alliance.

From what we see in "Homefront" the military and civil defense issues appear to be directly handled by the President with no input from Earth authorities at all

Nor any input from the federation council either.

My preferred take is that what the president gave was basically a tentative "go ahead" on his own, but then legally had to seek the permission of the United Earth authorities. Who could have shut him down.

Earth is still just another Federation member world. It's not "more important" than any of the rest of them, it still has its own government

Really, in Journey to Babel where was the Earth ambassador?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Really, in Journey to Babel where was the Earth ambassador?

He wasn't scheduled to arrive until Tuesday.

 

[Albertese]

....Essentially, the Federation handles all of the extra-solar affairs of its member nations. Whether that jurisdiction goes into effect at the edge of the atmospheric boundary or the edge of the solar system is probably within the purview of the local government.

This makes me wonder: are most members registered on a planetary level or a system level? For instance: is Mars a separate member from Earth? Sam Cogley mentioned the Fundamental Declaration of the Martian Colonies as precedent founding interstellar law. Quark was involved in auctioning a painting that their flag was based on. Is Mars a separate political entity from Earth, or a suburb of Earth? A close partner in Federation matters, but not a member of United Earth.

What of places like Jupiter Station? Are such properties self-owned and governed if they are large enough or are they always owned by a member planet? If so would JS be operated by United Earth or the Martian Colonies? Or perhaps by some heretofore unmentioned other world, perhaps an independent colony on Ganymede? How many such things are run by the UFP directly without any lower-tier national involvement? What about farther flung facilities, like Space Station K-7? Is that run by a civilian branch of the UFP or sponsored by some other specific member planet? It does have UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS emblazoned on it in twenty foot high letters....

Thoughts?

--Alex

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Mars is a separate Federation member world, having gained independence from Earth.

 

[Nerys Myk]

This makes me wonder: are most members registered on a planetary level or a system level? For instance: is Mars a separate member from Earth? Sam Cogley mentioned the Fundamental Declaration of Martian Colonies as precedent founding interstellar law. Quark was involved in auctioning a painting that their flag was based on. Is Mars a separate political entity form Earth, or a suburb of Earth? A close partner in Federation matters, but not a member of United Earth.

What of places like Jupiter Station? Are such properties self-owned and governed if they are large enough or are they always owned by a member planet? If so would JS be operated by United Earth or the Martian Colonies? Or perhaps by some heretofore unmentioned other world, perhaps an independent colony on Ganymede? How many such things are run by the UFP directly without any lower-tier national involvement? What about farther flung facilities, like Space Station K-7? Is that run by a civilian branch of the UFP or sponsored by some other specific member planet? It does have UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS emblazoned on it in twenty foot high letters....

Thoughts?

--Alex

I assume its pretty complex. Mars seems to be a separate member. as does Alpha Centauri, even though they are human majority worlds. Other less developed human colonies might be governed by Earth.
Jupiter Station sounds like a Starfleet operation so it's Federation. I suppose it could be leased from the UE or the MC.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Really, in Journey to Babel where was the Earth ambassador?

Commanding the ship, at least until he was stabbed by the fake Andorian after doing his flying butt slam.

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[TommyR01D]

Not that referring to a territory/political entity by an incorrect name is unrealistic - think how many people incorrectly refer to the Netherlands as Holland, for example.

Think how many people refer to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as "England", or (in a previous generation) to Armenia, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine etc. as "Russia".

 

[Tenacity]

Essentially, the Federation handles all of the extra-solar affairs of its member nations

The example of Vulcan suggests that members do retain the abilitiy to conduct their own interstellar affairs, however one of the reasons the members maintain the existance of the federation would be to collectively handle their interstellar matters.

I've always seen the Federation as an organ that leaves local governing of planetary affairs to the planetary government

I don't see the federation so much "letting" the members handle their own internal matter, more the member don't allow the federation any powers in that area.

The federation's mandate is limited.

but we only hear it referred to as Earth out of tradition

At some point pre-TNG sometime (my observation) Earth apparently ceased to be referred to as "United Earth" and was then simply called "Earth," even when being formally referred to. The member worlds don't seem to go in for fancy labels names for their worlds.

As for Earth being the "capital planet," all kidding to the side, likely it's not. The federation probably has a few city blocks set aside in the city of Paris for the buildings it uses for meetings, housing and official functions.

This area might be seen as legally extraterritorial, the Paris city council having limited jurisdiction there, but the federation doesn't "own" all of the city of Paris, or the Earth.

This makes me wonder: are most members registered on a planetary level or a system level?

Maybe it's the heliosphere enclosing a star system, everything inside is sovereign, problem there might be that the heliosphere is irregular in shape. Perhaps a perfect sphere centered of the sun (or each sun) with a radius of half a light year, would be better.

Sam Cogley mentioned the Fundamental Declaration of the Martian Colonies as precedent founding interstellar law.

Cogley was reeling off a list of books and document pertaining to laws and civil rights, the Fundamental Declaration of the Martian Colonies is like solely in that area, and not a declaration of independence.

Is Mars a separate political entity from Earth, or a suburb of Earth?

I say more "suburb of Earth." The various nations (former colonies) on Mars send representatives to the United Earth assembly, as would cities in space like Jupiter Station. Any remaining colonies on Mars would be represented through their home countries. Independent planets in other star systems originally colonized by Humans might also send representatives to United Earth.

If they are a part of that body.

What about farther flung facilities, like Space Station K-7?

Civilian owned facility.

 

[Jedi Marso]

The example of Vulcan suggests that members do retain the abilitiy to conduct their own interstellar affairs, however one of the reasons the members maintain the existance of the federation would be to collectively handle their interstellar matters.

I'm not sure we ever saw any concrete examples of this, possibly with the exception of the 'Unification' storyline.

I don't see the federation so much "letting" the members handle their own internal matter, more the member don't allow the federation any powers in that area.

The federation's mandate is limited.

You and I are saying basically the same thing here. It goes back to various statements from Kirk or Picard saying something like: "In the Federation, your planet will always be yours to govern as you see fit." The obvious caveats to that are things like slavery- a planet practicing it wouldn't be offered admission to the Federation in the first place.

At some point pre-TNG sometime (my observation) Earth apparently ceased to be referred to as "United Earth" and was then simply called "Earth," even when being formally referred to. The member worlds don't seem to go in for fancy labels names for their worlds.

That makes sense. After a couple centuries, the 'United' part is simply taken for granted- continuing to say it sounds either redundant or smacks of a people trying to convince themselves that it's true.

As for Earth being the "capital planet," all kidding to the side, likely it's not. The federation probably has a few city blocks set aside in the city of Paris for the buildings it uses for meetings, housing and official functions.

This area might be seen as legally extraterritorial, the Paris city council having limited jurisdiction there, but the federation doesn't "own" all of the city of Paris, or the Earth.

I think that by the 24th Century, the Federation is big enough that the 'capital' either moves around between various member worlds or is established on a big space station or planet considered 'neutral ground.' I find it unlikely that it would be permanently established on Earth much later than the TOS-movie era.

Maybe it's the heliosphere enclosing a star system, everything inside is sovereign, problem there might be that the heliosphere is irregular in shape. Perhaps a perfect sphere centered of the sun (or each sun) with a radius of half a light year, would be better.

Again, I think this would be left up to individual member worlds and would depend in part on how much responsibility they wanted to take on and what their capabilities were. For races who aren't avid spacefarers, letting Federation jurisdiction begin at the atmospheric boundary might be the best solution. For a race like the Vulcans, they probably find it logical to manage the space within the entirety of their solar system.

I say more "suburb of Earth." The various nations (former colonies) on Mars send representatives to the United Earth assembly, as would cities in space like Jupiter Station. Any remaining colonies on Mars would be represented through their home countries. Independent planets in other star systems originally colonized by Humans might also send representatives to United Earth.

Disagree on this one. I think it's fairly firmly established that Mars is an independent member of the Federation. Since Earth was a founding member and Starfleet had its origins on Earth, I'd guess the Sol System is a bit of a special case with regards to Starfleet and Federation jurisdiction- they are probably far more entwined with the local planetary governments than in other Federation systems. There is a story kernel there somewhere- I just feel it.

(Space Station K-7) Civilian owned facility.

Agree. If it was a Starfleet starbase, Klingons would not be allowed to have the run of the place, and not even necessarily rogues like Cyrano Jones.