How can monospecies empires like the Romulans and Klingons compete (long term) with the Federation?

[at Quark's]

So, we are supposed to believe that species like the Klingons and Romulans are a significant threat when first encountered in the 22nd century, and stay so throughout the 23rd and 24th century.

But neither are they at any point in time so strong they can overpower the Federation without too much effort (well perhaps the Klingons could have with pre-Federation earth), or they would probably have done so, so they can't have had a huge headstart either.

This all while the Federation is supposed to make huge strides in that timespan, and combines the efforts, resources, economies and brightest minds and perspectives of an ever-growing number of species. So, somehow the Klingons and Romulans must have kept up. But how can mono-species empires (or, at best empires with one single ruling class) hope to compete with them, long term? Subjugation would be far less efficient than voluntary cooperation.

Where do they get their scientist and economies, if huge amounts of what they could generate is spilled under a warrior caste (or stifled under a senate and secret police that tightly controls society)?

EDIT: can't seem to get rid of these annoying HTML-codes for which I apologise (not even deletion of entire paragraphs seems to help (and can't delete this opening post) ).

 

[CorporalClegg]

They can't.

I think that's kinda the whole point.

 

[The Old Mixer]

EDIT: can't seem to get rid of these annoying HTML-codes for which I apologise (not even deletion of entire paragraphs seems to help (and can't delete this opening post) ).

Fixed. Did you try going into plain text editing mode to get rid of them?

 

[BillJ]

So, somehow the Klingons and Romulans must have kept up. But how can mono-species empires (or, at best empires with one single ruling class) hope to compete with them, long term? Subjugation would be far less efficient than voluntary cooperation.

Overpowering numbers of soldiers, I would imagine. The Federation may have a technological edge, but the Romulans and Klingons likely have a huge manpower edge. Drafting folks from conquered worlds into their militaries as cannon fodder.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I suspect the Romulans have several worlds on which other races live under their control. We don’t see them because, similar to the Remans, they’re part of a lower societal caste than most Romulans and thus don’t figure prominently in military or political matters.

 

[Shawnster]

Bad writing.

From a stereotypical point of view China is a monolithic society. It's not, but that is the stereotype presented, especially in the past.

Klingons were an analog for the Soviets back in the 60s. This was or is another culture depicted as monolithic in Western media. It's not.

So, realistically, the Klingons and Romulans are multi cultural civilizations. We saw the Remans which finally developed the Romulan Empire culture mix. Klingons and Romulans are both depicted as empires that conquer and subjugate other civilizations.

Monolithic cultures in alien societies is a common TV trope and Star Trek is no exception.

 

[at Quark's]

I think that's kinda the whole point.

But the whole point of what, exactly?

Of 'the underlying Star Trek message and ideals'? (however vague that may be)…. I would be inclined to agree with you.

Or of 'the Star Trek saga'? If so, they have a very peculiar way of showing it. Despite many 'wins' in individual episodes, it never seems to amount to anything in the long run, the Federation never seems to pull definitely ahead of their competitors.

Fixed. Did you try going into plain text editing mode to get rid of them?

If you mean by that, the 'BB code editor' option, then no (will try that next time it acts up- thanks!)

 

[Infern0]

Less red tape.

Sometimes a single United force with one goal is more formidable than one with lots of seperate moving parts.

 

[Timo]

I wouldn't worry about long term. In the long term, the UFP will lose every edge you postulate it might have: the multiple participants will blend into an undifferentiated mass that does not innovate any better than a single species would, and their big and productive homeworlds will be caught up by the worlds the Klingons conquered and possibly weakened in the process, as those worlds grow up while the homeworlds no longer have any room for improvement.

In the short term, the UFP would enjoy the onrush of new ideas, which may be an advantage. Or then a major disadvantage, as there will be no telling which ideas to choose and which to drop, and the meshing of dozens of different bureaucracies and ways of doing things will squander resources until completed. The UFP would also have a larger number of homeworld-standard planets than an empire based on conquest and expansion from a single homeworld - but the Klingons may constantly conquer other folks' homeworlds without utterly ruining them, thus making greater leaps than a Federation that gets its new homeworlds intact but not all that often, and has to painstakingly establish colonies in the meantime.

I gather it boils down to numbers, and Klingons and Romulans had the numbers to their side while dozens of other conquest-based players (and dozens of cooperation-based ones) lost to the UFP in the centuries we observed. We shouldn't be blinded by survivor bias here: that these different sorts of empires exist is no proof that they are any good in the long run when in competition with other sorts. The ones we see just happen to be fine with each other for the current mix under the current parameters, with just one democracy and two or three centrally led entities on top presently.

Not that the UFP would be particularly non-centralized, really. It's an Earth dictatorship when it comes to foreign policy, which is made by Starfleet, which is controlled by Earth. Then again, the Klingons aren't necessarily a monobloc culture, either, as perhaps suggested by the ever-changing faces of those in control.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

The Klingon's aren't a mono-species society - look at all the different Klingons we've seen! Whatever propaganda we've been presented by the various dramatizations (ie TV shows and movies), it's clear that the Klingon Empire is populated by peoples with a huge variety of different ethnic/racial backgrounds.

 

[Kennelly]

It's stated outright in TUC, the Klingons have such an "enormous military budget", aka they pour a much bigger amount of their economy into the military and related stuff like R&D, that leaves little for the civilian sector and when one disaster happens, they basically collapse. Same probably for the Romulans.

You can defeat the Federation if you are fast and have a technological advantage (preferably both). But if you allow the Federation to fully mobilize, you're doomed. That's basically the situation at the end of the Dominion War, the UFP probably has been in a war-economy for five years or so and is pouring out starships at a ridiculous rate. Odo's comments at the end of WYLB to me strongly suggest, that the UFP is basically calling the shots now. I mean, Section 31 estimated the Klingons would need an entire decade to recover and the Federation basically goes back to normal right away.

The idea that you can overwhelm the UFP with the populations of conquered worlds is ridiculous IMO. Subjugated&Second-Class populations will never fight/research/produce as effectively as races united together voluntarily.

 

[Timo]

I'd assume the opposite. Volunteers would tend to squabble between themselves - the Americans and the British were basically at war with each other for most of WWII, weakening the western Allies' effort almost as much as the Nazi infighting weakened Germany. But worlds conquered would supposedly be purged of rebellious elements and indeed of native populations if need be: Klingon worlds are shown rebelling and the seat of the Empire considering this a minor nuisance in "Mind's Eye", the suggestion being that external threat will unify the warriors easily enough. And Gowron is good at arranging for external threats.

But yeah, Klingons probably lag behind the Feds in production capacity - possibly simply because they are the smaller empire, and therefore the nimbler and more easily defensible one. In a war against X, Klingons get exhausted faster than Feds. In a war against each other, Klingons prevail, as per all the examples of such war (DSC, "Yesterday's Enterprise", mid-DS9), not because they would be the more powerful side, but because they are the less soft target.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[valkyrie013]

With the federation, I kind of think of it as an "ideal" united states model of governing. In that Each memeber is a state, and whatever the "state" wants to do in its own state, they can. So the Federation will never be a "Homoginzed" enity. The states don't have to get rid of there culture. There together because they belive in the Federations Ideals of peace and cooperation Vs. a Klingon or Romulan model of conquest, and servitude.
A powerfull "Central Power" will never last in the long run becasue you'll have "states" that will be ignored or marginalized, then like America and others did, they'll succeed from the Federation and become there won world again. "think Brexit"
The conquest model will never work because there will always be a "rebellion" to overthrow the empire.

 

[johnnybear]

Day of The Dove tells us of many conquered worlds deep within the Klingon systems and it wasn't really until TNG that we learned a lot more about the Romulan Star Empire! Errand of Mercy also gives us a quick briefing of Klingon activities like taking over planets and forcing the inhabitants into slave labour and the like and the same is probably true of the Romulans!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

The Klingon's aren't a mono-species society - look at all the different Klingons we've seen! Whatever propaganda we've been presented by the various dramatizations (ie TV shows and movies), it's clear that the Klingon Empire is populated by peoples with a huge variety of different ethnic/racial backgrounds.

They might have different turtles on their heads in the TNG era but Klingons are really the same species from what we know of them! The TOS variety were the originals and you can believe the ENT solution or say they evolved and after that we've seen ridges, bones and shells with veins in their foreheads but they're still the same Klingons while the DSC lot are another universe entirely!
JB

 

[Tenacity]

So, we are supposed to believe that species like the Klingons and Romulans are a significant threat when first encountered in the 22nd century, and stay so throughout the 23rd and 24th century.

While diversity can bring strength, diversity can also bring dissent and discord.

A thousand points of view pulling in as many directions.

Every one of which is calling all the others Nazis.

 

[Admiral2]

So, we are supposed to believe that species like the Klingons and Romulans are a significant threat when first encountered in the 22nd century, and stay so throughout the 23rd and 24th century.

I have absolutely no problem believing this.

But neither are they at any point in time so strong they can overpower the Federation without too much effort (well perhaps the Klingons could have with pre-Federation earth), or they would probably have done so, so they can't have had a huge headstart either.

You're assuming overpowering the Federation is a strategic goal of the Klingons and the Romulans. We have no evidence that the Klingons and Romulans want or need to wipe out the Federation to achieve their goals. We've seen them compete with the Federation for non-aligned worlds (TOS) and political supremacy (TNG), but there are only two instances of the two races having a wipe-them-out goal: the Romulan War (where Earth had allies) and the TNG-era spat with the Klingons (which was instigated by the changelings, not something the Klingons were actually desperate to do.)

And if you believe ENT, then both races had high-speed, long range warp capability before we launched our first warp 5 ship, which means they had all the head start they needed.

This all while the Federation is supposed to make huge strides in that timespan, and combines the efforts, resources, economies and brightest minds and perspectives of an ever-growing number of species. So, somehow the Klingons and Romulans must have kept up. But how can mono-species empires (or, at best empires with one single ruling class) hope to compete with them, long term? Subjugation would be far less efficient than voluntary cooperation.

Less efficient, but not completely useless.

Where do they get their scientist and economies, if huge amounts of what they could generate is spilled under a warrior caste (or stifled under a senate and secret police that tightly controls society)?

The same place Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and modern Iran get theirs. They are Command societies, so anyone with half a brain will be commanded to turn their brains to the state's benefit or suffer horribly. So they do, and Nazi Germany buried half of a continent under its thumb, the Soviets kept pace with the Americans (and in some cases outstripped us) for decades and all Iran needs is one nuke to scare the piss out of everyone around the world.

Why would you think aliens with FTL technology, beam weapons and matter transporters would find doing the same thing hard?

 

[BillJ]

So they do, and Nazi Germany buried half of a continent under its thumb, the Soviets kept pace with the Americans (and in some cases outstripped us) for decades...

We kept pace, thanks to Project: Paperclip.

 

[MAGolding]

In the first Klingon episode, "Errand of Mercy", Kirk tells the Organians:

KIRK: Gentlemen, I have seen what the Klingons do to planets like yours. They are organised into vast slave labour camps. No freedoms whatsoever. Your goods will be confiscated. Hostages taken and killed, your leaders confined. You'd be far better off on a penal planet. Infinitely better off.

And Kor tells them:

KOR: Good honest hatred. Very refreshing. However, it makes no difference whether you welcome me or not. I am here and will stay. You are now subjects of the Klingon Empire. You'll find there are many rules and regulations. They will be posted. Violation of the smallest of them will be punished by death.

And:

KOR: Yes. I am. I shall need a representative from among you. Liaison between the forces of the occupation and the civil population. Smile and smile. I don't trust men who smile too much. You, Baroner, you're the man.
KIRK: Me? I don't want the job.
KOR: Have I asked whether or not you want it? We Klingons have a reputation for ruthlessness. You will find that it is deserved. Should one Klingon soldier be killed, a thousand Organians will die. I will have order. Is that clear?
AYELBORNE: Commander, I assure you our people want nothing but peace. We shall cause you no trouble.

And:

KOR: From this day on, no public assemblages of more than three people. All publications to be cleared through this office. Neighbourhood controls will be established, hostages selected. A somewhat lengthy list of crimes against the state.

Clearly when the Klingons conquer inhabited planets the populations are not exterminated - Kirk would have said so if that was the case - but made subjects of the Klingon Empire and treated badly and harshly.

Note that the Klingons aren't the least little bit surprised that the Organians look like Earth Humans. Why should they be, since the most common appearance for extraterrestrials in TOS is looking like Earth Humans, and the TOS Klingons themselves only look slightly exotic and alien. Thus it is probable that many alien subjects of the Klingon Empire who happen to look like Earth Humans are used as spies in the Federation.

In "Balance of Terror", the first episode with Romulans, Kirk's first log entry says:

Captain's Log, stardate 1709.2. Patrolling outposts guarding the neutral zone between planets Romulus and Remus and the rest of the galaxy, received emergency call from outpost 4. The U.S.S. Enterprise is moving to investigate and assist.

If the neutral zone is actually between planets Romulus and Remus and the rest of the galaxy it would have to be a concentric shell surrounding the solar system(s) containing the planets Romulus and Remus. An inner sphere would be the Romulan edge of the neutral zone and an outer sphere would be the Federation edge of the neutral zone.

But since the map doesn't show the neutral zone going all the way around the system(s) of Romulus and Remus there is no way of knowing if it does go all the way around, outside the edges of the map that is shown, or if it is only a partial barrier between the Romulan Star Empire and the Federation.

Later two Romulans talk like they have seen constant warfare despite the neutral zone between them and the Federation.

COMMANDER: Danger and I are old companions.
CENTURION: We've seen a hundred campaigns together, and still I do not understand you.
COMMANDER: I think you do. No need to tell you what happens when we reach home with proof of the Earthmen's weakness. And we will have proof. The Earth commander will follow. He must. When he attacks, we will destroy him. Our gift to the homeland, another war.
CENTURION: If we are the strong, isn't this the signal for war?
COMMANDER: Must it always be so? How many comrades have we lost in this way?
CENTURION: Our portion, Commander, is obedience.
COMMANDER: Obedience. Duty. Death and more death. Soon even enough for the Praetor's taste. Centurion, I find myself wishing for destruction before we can return. Worry not. Like you, I am too well-trained in my duty to permit it. Continue evasive manoeuvres. Now, back to the first course.

If the frequency of campaigns is between four campaigns per year and four years per campaign, the hundred campaigns should have lasted between 25 years and 400 years. The hundred campaigns could have been in one foreign or civil war or each could have been a separate war.

It is quite possible, though not certain, that each campaign resulted in the conquest of a space travelling species or even a federation of space travelling species.

After discovering that outposts have been attacked, Kirk orders:

KIRK: Open a channel to our nearest command base. Quarter hour reports on our position and status.
UHURA: Yes, sir.

Later:

STILES: We'll enter the Neutral Zone in less than an hour, sir. Assuming, of course, that we don't turn back.
SCOTT [OC]: We now have aboard debris from Outpost four, Captain.
KIRK: Bring it to the briefing room. Are you ready, gentlemen?

Minutes later in the briefing room:

KIRK: What's our position?
UHURA [OC]: Course unchanged, sir. Estimating treaty boundary in twenty one minutes.
KIRK: Are you continuing to broadcast tactical reports?
UHURA [OC]: Affirmative, Captain.
KIRK: And at this distance?
UHURA [OC]: Approximately three hours before receiving a reply to our first message.

So Uhura should have broadcast at least one tactical report after the first one since Kirk asked if she was continuing to.

If Uhura broadcast two messages it should be between fifteen and thirty minutes after the first report, if she broadcast three it should be between thirty and forty five minutes after the first report, etc. Uhura says it should be about three more hours until they get a reply to the first message, so the subspace radio round trip time from the neutral zone to the nearest command base should be at least 3.25 hours.

Later:

STILES: We'll enter the Neutral Zone in one minute, Captain.

Kirk opens fire on the Romulans and:

STILES: Twenty seconds to Neutral Zone, sir.
KIRK: Lieutenant Uhura, inform Command base, In my opinion, no option. On my responsibility, we are proceeding into the Neutral Zone. Steady as we go, Mister Sulu. Continue firing.

Soon after both ships try a waiting game at the edge of the neutral zone.

Captain's log, Stardate 1709.6. We are at the Neutral Zone. Have lost contact with the intruder. No reaction on our motion sensors but believe the Romulan vessel to be somewhere close by. With all engines and systems shut down, the Enterprise is also playing the silent waiting game in hope of regaining contact.

Captain's log, supplemental. Now motionless for nine hours, forty seven minutes.

Nine hours 47 minutes is approximately 9.783 hours. This should be at least six hours after Uhura estimated they would get an answer to their first message.

The final battle should be just a few minutes later. And shortly after that battle:

KIRK: How many men did we lose, Bones?
MCCOY: Only one. Tomlinson. The boy who was getting married this morning. His fianc�e is at the chapel.
(Kirk turns to go, and Rand enters)
RAND: We finally received an answer from Command base, sir. They say they'll support whatever decision you have to make.

According to my rough calculations the action between the first scene and this scene takes somewhere between 10.383 hours and one day or 24.000 hours. Rand didn't specify if this answer was in response to the first message or in response to the message that they were going to enter the neutral zone.

The round trip time for subspace radio signals between the neutral zone and the nearest command base is somewhere between 3.25 hours and 24 hours. I would guess that if the message at the end was a reply to the message they were about to enter the neutral zone, the round trip time would be about 10 hours. That would mean that Uhura sent her first message about 6.75 hours before the briefing room scene.

If the message at the end was a response to the first message Uhura sent, then it came about seven hours later than it should have, so the staff at the command base would have spent those seven hours dithering, panicking, and running around like chickens with their heads cut off, or else waiting for an answer from Starfleet Command on Earth. That means that the total round trip time for a subspace message should be less than 24 hours minus 7 hours, or less than 17 hours.

The subspace radio round trip time from the neutral zone to the nearest command base is 3.25 to 17.00 hours, so the one way subspace radio trip time from the neutral zone to the nearest command base is about 1.625 to 8.5 hours.

When the Enterprise crosses a different part of the neutral zone into Romulan space in "The Enterprise Incident" Sub Commander Tal give them one hour to surrender or be destroyed.

KIRK: You understand that Starfleet Command has been advised of the situation?
TAL [on viewscreen]: The subspace message will take three weeks to reach Starfleet. The decision is yours, Captain. One hour.

If three weeks is between 17.5 days (or 420 hours) and 24.5 days (or 588 hours), the travel time from this part of the Romulan border is 49.411 to 361.846 times as long as the travel time from another part of the Romulan border to the nearest command base in "Balance of Terror".

The round trip time for radio messages from Earth to the Moon and back is about 3 seconds, which caused a noticeable time lag in conversations with astronauts on the Moon.

There is no time lag when Spock at planet Gideon has a conversation with Admiral Fitzgerald at Starfleet Command in "The Mark of Gideaon", when Kirk near planet Daran V has a conversation with Admiral Westervleit at Starfleet Command in "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky", or when Kirk near Sherman's Planet in an area disputed between the Federation and the Klingons has a conversation with Admiral Fitzpatrick in "The Trouble with Tribbles".

There is no time lag" in "Amok Time" when Kirk has a conversation with Admiral Komack at Starfleet Command while headed toward Altair, which is about 16.73 light years from Earth. Assuming that Kirk is less than 10 light years closer or farther than Altair, there is no noticeable time lag in a subspace radio round trip of 13.46 to 53.46 light years.

Since a light second is the distance that light travels in one second, there are 31,557,600 light seconds in a light year, or 10,519,200 times the distance that light travels in three seconds. For subspace radio waves to make a round trip of 13.46 to 33.46 light years in less than 3 seconds so there is no noticeable time lag, subspace radio waves have to travel at least 141,188,430 to 351,872,050 times as fast as light.

The neutral zone in "Balance of Terror" should be about 3,900 to 20,400 times as far from Earth as Kirk was in "Amok Time", or about 26,247 to 545,292 light years, and the neutral zone in "The Enterprise Incident" should be about 49.411 to 361.846 times as far as the neutral zone in "Balance of Terror", or about 1,289,016.4 to 17,004,712 light years.

There is no noticeable time lag when Kirk has a conversation with Commodore Barstow at Starfleet Command in "The Alternative Factor" near a distant planet. Barstow fears an invasion is imminent and when Kirk asks for backup starships:

BARSTOW [on viewscreen]: Negative. I'm evacuating all Starfleet units and personnel within a hundred parsecs of your position. It's going to be tough on you and the Enterprise, but that's the job you've drawn. You're on your own.

Since Barstow wouldn't withdraw Starfleet units from Earth, Vulcan, or other important planets, this planet should be more than a hundred parsecs, or 326.156 light years from Earth.

So the time lag is less than 3 seconds in a round trip of over 652.312 light years.

The neutral zone in "Balance of Terror" should be about 3,900 to 20,400 times as far from Earth as Kirk was in "The Alternative Factor", or about 1,272,008.4 to 6,653,582.4 light years, and the neutral zone in "The Enterprise Incident" should be about 49.411 to 361.846 times as far as the neutral zone in "Balance of Terror", or about 62,850,792 to 2,407,361,400 light years.

Those calculations provide some support for Spock's statement in "All Our Yesterdays" that:

SPOCK: That is true. I am not from the world you know at all. My home is a planet millions of light years away.

But in "By Any Other Name" Kirk says:

KIRK: What's the point of capturing my ship? Even at maximum warp, the Enterprise couldn't get to Andromeda galaxy for thousands of years.

So apparently there is some variable factor in the time it takes subspace radio messages to reach their destinations, and the Romulan Empire is probably much less far flung than those calculations indicate. But it could be spread out over less than a thousandth of the calculated distances and still be a vast empire ruling hundreds or thousands of intelligent species.

In "The Deadly Years" a part of the Romulan neutral zone is between Starbase 10 and Gamma Hydra, which is probably Gamma Hydrae, which is about 133.8 light years from Earth. In "Whom Gods Destroy":

SPOCK: Fascinating. What maneuver did we use to defeat the Romulan vessel near Tau Ceti?
KIRK 1: Very good, Spock. The Cochrane deceleration.

Tau Ceti is about 11.905 light years from Earth, so Gamma Hydrae is about 11.238 times as far as Tau Ceti.

So Romulan warships have operated over a distance of at least about 150 light years implying that the Romulan empire rules many different intelligent species considering how common they are in Star Trek.

So there is no reason to believe that either the Klingon Empire or the Romulan Empire is a monospecies realm.

 

[Lance]

I don't believe those empires to be monospecies cultures.

It's canon that the Rommies have the Remans as a enslaved race. There are probably others, or maybe even allies.

It seems likely an empire as brutal as the Klingons would have their fair share of enslaved races too

Heck there's enough variety in even the Klingons we see across five decades to suggest a lot of diversity