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How are Sarek and T'Pau related?

Hando

Commander
Red Shirt
I know that there is no answer to this question, but can we perhaps at least make an educated guess?

What could their relationship be, "third cousins seven times removed"? :p

We know that T'Pau is not descended from Solkar.
She is the matriarch of Sarek's clan (in he 23rd century), does that mean she is the oldest female, or eldest of eldest etc. female?



Any hint is welcome.
 
Wasn't even stated that they were related?

Sure T'Pau was to officate at Spock's wedding. But that could have been to do with Sarek's status as Ambassador or even Spock's status as didn't T'Pring said he had become quite well known.

But Solkar could have had a sibling.
 
Wasn't even stated that they were related?

Sure T'Pau was to officate at Spock's wedding. But that could have been to do with Sarek's status as Ambassador or even Spock's status as didn't T'Pring said he had become quite well known.

But Solkar could have had a sibling.

I am going by The Tears of Eridanus:
I am T’Pau, matriarch of the Clan Hgrtcha
and Sybok is a member of the same clan.

But I am sure there are also other examples in the Prime universe.

I don't think she has any immediate relatives, as the government would have used them in 2155.
 
We know that T'Pau is not descended from Solkar.

Do we?

T'Pau, in ENT, looks to be in her late 20's / early 30's. Solkar was already many decades old by that time (he was the Vulcan captain who made first contact with Earth as shown in ST:FC, which takes place many years before ENT). So T'Pau could very well be a descendant of his.
 
In terms of Prime examples, Vulcan's Forge also says that T'Pau is the matriarch of Spock's clan, though it conflicts with the post-ENT novels.

Edit: Going by Memory Beta, admittedly; I haven't gotten to that book yet myself.
 
Again going by MB, but it apparently gives an alternate explanation for T'Pau turning down a Federation Council seat. Though I guess it's possible it happened twice?
 
I remember one of the Vulcan -centered Trek novels makes it explicitly clear that Sarek and T'Pau are in the same family. It's either Sarek or Spock's World I think. Maybe the Vulcan Academy Murders. Possibly all three of them. I read them all a few months ago and some of the details all bled together in my head.
 
I guess "Amok Time" is ambiguous about T'Pau's status. When Kirk finds that T'Pau is officiating at Spock's wedding, he says "He never mentioned that his family was this important." That could mean that T'Pau is part of his family, or it could mean that his family is important enough that T'Pau would officiate. But fandom has generally assumed the former. I admit, I've never really questioned that she was part of the same clan. I guess I unconsciously thought "Amok Time" had made that explicit.
 
^ But Skon could have had more than one child. Sarek could have had siblings.

There was Sarek's younger brother Silek in the novel "Demons" and don't forger Spock's hypothetical cousin Selek, son of Sasak and T'Pel from TAS episode "Yesteryear".

I guess "Amok Time" is ambiguous about T'Pau's status. When Kirk finds that T'Pau is officiating at Spock's wedding, he says "He never mentioned that his family was this important." That could mean that T'Pau is part of his family, or it could mean that his family is important enough that T'Pau would officiate. But fandom has generally assumed the former. I admit, I've never really questioned that she was part of the same clan. I guess I unconsciously thought "Amok Time" had made that explicit.

That is why I placed this question in the Lit Forum, as the familial connection has already been established in the novels...
And Spok's family should have be important: father and great-grandfather ambassadors, father married a princess...

There is however the problem of patrilineal vs matrilineal, if we take the "matriarch" idea seriously than I am not so sure, I just lack the practical knowledge of how such a clan would work.

Although I suspect that the matrilineal way is the right way to go, and here Solkar's wife and T'Rama (and Supek and his wife by extensions) are the better suspects of being related to T'Pau.
However, all of them kind of contrast T'Pol's anti-human attitude.

I have to reread Solkar's and T'Rama's interaction with T'Pau, if there any indications of a relation.


Food for though: are the melder attribute random, inherited, or belongs only to a small group/clan? Could be another angle.
 
Food for though: are the melder attribute random, inherited, or belongs only to a small group/clan? Could be another angle.

Well, ENT's Vulcan Civil War trilogy pretty well established that all Vulcans are "melders." As I've interpreted it in the books, it's just that some have more of a natural affinity for it than others. There's a bit more discussion of this coming up in Uncertain Logic.
 
I suppose part of the issue here is how large and inclusive a Vulcan clan is. For what's it's worth, and relating somewhat to Hando's pondering, I've interpreted a clan as rather large, with (traditionally) a small number of matriarchs serving as the spiritual and technical authorities - the supreme arbiters - who traditionally delegate political authority in more "mundane" matters of finance, administration, warfare, etc., to related males who then lead the smaller family units. Vulcan has been described in the novels as traditionally matriarchal, but the Vulcan nuclear family, and other smaller family units, have always seemed to me, both onscreen and in novels, to have a strongly patriarchal flavour. I tend to assume that a clan consists of multiple houses, whose leaders either official or unofficial are generally male, and who show in turn an allegiance to the clan matriarch(s) who has/have the final say in matters that affect multiple families or conflicts that arise between them.

I've always noted that the te-Vikram, the warrior culture in Surak's time mentioned/appearing in Vulcan's Soul, etc., have all political leadership roles explicitly male, save one - the Old Mother of Fire, who in theory is supposedly very powerful. In practice, it seems, less so - she's only mentioned once, and even then there's speculation that she might have died and been replaced by her son (not her daughter, I note). I've always interpreted this as a relic of the more common model - that the te-Vikram began like other Vulcan societies and it's slowly given way to something else (something unusual in Vulcan terms), but it still retains this last symbolic remnant, the ghost of the idea that the male administrators, warlords, businessmen, etc., are loyal to or serve a more distant matriarch with a more detached, more encompassing, "spiritual" authority.

Or, to answer the actual question (:lol:) I've assumed the relationship might be quite distant. But I'm sure Uncertain Logic will give an answer.
 
^Nope, I don't explicitly establish how T'Pau is related to the family, I just mention that she is. Honestly, it never occurred to me to wonder. I figure she's just some kind of cousin.
 
I guess "Amok Time" is ambiguous about T'Pau's status. When Kirk finds that T'Pau is officiating at Spock's wedding, he says "He never mentioned that his family was this important." That could mean that T'Pau is part of his family, or it could mean that his family is important enough that T'Pau would officiate. But fandom has generally assumed the former. I admit, I've never really questioned that she was part of the same clan. I guess I unconsciously thought "Amok Time" had made that explicit.
Whereas I always went for the latter assumption--that T'Pau wasn't a part of the family per se, but that Spock's family was simply important enough that that kind of ceremony would call for the presence of a prominent, famous Vulcan like T'Pau.
 
I had assumed that T'Pau was the head of Spock and Sarek's clan. Sure they consider themselves related, but there's probably no great way to prove it paper. (In the sense that on a theoretical level, I'm related to all people with the last name McNamara but I'm not necessarily a direct blood connection.)
 
I guess "Amok Time" is ambiguous about T'Pau's status. When Kirk finds that T'Pau is officiating at Spock's wedding, he says "He never mentioned that his family was this important." That could mean that T'Pau is part of his family, or it could mean that his family is important enough that T'Pau would officiate. But fandom has generally assumed the former. I admit, I've never really questioned that she was part of the same clan. I guess I unconsciously thought "Amok Time" had made that explicit.
Whereas I always went for the latter assumption--that T'Pau wasn't a part of the family per se, but that Spock's family was simply important enough that that kind of ceremony would call for the presence of a prominent, famous Vulcan like T'Pau.

Yeah, I always went with the latter view too. In forty years, I'd never even considered the other interpretation until reading this post. If the former interpretation had been intended, I'd think that Kirk would have said, "He never mentioned that his family was that important," in reference to the just mentioned event with respect to the Federation Council, implying that it was a family member who had turned down a seat on it. Instead, he said (emphasis mine), "He never mentioned that his family was this important," evidently to me in reference to her presence at the wedding itself, to me implying that the significance was only that the family rated her presence there and then, at the wedding. A very small, but subtle distinction.
 
I think I assumed T'Pau was part of the Spock/Sarek family primarily because earlier novels did-- I probably read Sarek and Spock's World long before I ever saw "Amok Time"! Hence her inclusion in that role in The Tears of Eridanus; it never occurred to me to question the assumption until now.
 
I think I assumed T'Pau was part of the Spock/Sarek family primarily because earlier novels did-- I probably read Sarek and Spock's World long before I ever saw "Amok Time"! Hence her inclusion in that role in The Tears of Eridanus; it never occurred to me to question the assumption until now.

You're not the only one. I've made the same assumption about T'Pau in my Enterprise novels, and I'm pretty sure Mike Martin did in his. (By the way, I drew on The Tears of Eridanus as a reference for Vulcan culture in Uncertain Logic. It's an alternate culture, of course, but it has some useful stuff about the pre-Awakening era.)
 
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