Hey a question about DS9 and the about changelings..

[Gingerbread Demon]

What do we know of changeling biology? Are they multi cellular or is one cell like a whole being or are they one big single cell organism?

They can change into other forms, what if say one was hiding as a loaf of bread and you eat a slice? You'd probably be in a bit of bother then wouldn't you? Could they even do something like that baring in mind that a loaf of bread is single slices?

Also after the series ended what became of the Jem'Hadar, the vorta and their forces scattered everywhere?

 

[hux]

I'm still trying to figure out how their vision works. Oddo appears to have eyes but obviously, he doesn't actually have eyes.

Does he have sonar, echo location, what?

You'd think he walk into things more often since he's only pretending to have functioning eyes.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I'm still trying to figure out how their vision works. Oddo appears to have eyes but obviously, he doesn't actually have eyes.

Does he have sonar, echo location, what?

You'd think he walk into things more often since he's only pretending to have functioning eyes.

Yeah that always bugged me. How the hell did he see what he was doing when operating computers and stuff for instance as well?

 

[Tosk]

Based on other statements made during the run of the show, I would assert that when Odo appears to have eyes, he actually does have functioning eyes.

If a Changeling were a loaf of sliced bread (totally easy to do, the slices are all touching) and you tried to eat a slice, it would revert before you got much of a chance. Unless you're in the habit of making sure the slice stays extremely close to the loaf.

 

[kkt]

But when he's something that has no eyes, he still seems to perceive what's going on around him. At least when the plot requires it. Like when he was the extra glass on the tray.

 

[Tosk]

Yeah, they definitely still have some other form of perception. The weird thing is, they can seemingly see and hear when in any form...but Odo also says that he has no sense of smell. So either he just doesn't know how yet or that's a drawback of all Changelings. So hard to know which.

Maybe it's like Odo saying that a lack of oxygen or heat can kill him...and then we see Laas swimming through space all fine. Surely we have to assume Odo just doesn't know his abilities well enough?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

When talking about the Krajensky imposter, Odo says that they won't be able scan for a changeling because the changeling will scan as the thing he appears to be. This would suggest that changelings can differentiate their cells according to function. Moreover, having once been "solids," changelings may have vestigial awareness of some senses.

And yes, Odo sucks as a shapeshifter.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Based on other statements made during the run of the show, I would assert that when Odo appears to have eyes, he actually does have functioning eyes.

If a Changeling were a loaf of sliced bread (totally easy to do, the slices are all touching) and you tried to eat a slice, it would revert before you got much of a chance. Unless you're in the habit of making sure the slice stays extremely close to the loaf.

But what if you took that slice and munched on it?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

On the subject of Changelings partially reverting to goo: how does that work?

Is that slice of bread now cut off from the Changeling's central nervous system? Is that why it reverts to goo? But, for a species who can twist into literally any shape imaginable (including mist), shouldn't the nervous system be decentralized to begin with?

What happens to that slice of bread goo if it isn't reabsorbed by the changeling? Does just stay dormant forever (or until it decays), or will it eventually grow an awareness of its own (maybe this is how changeling reproduction works?)?

What happens to a changeling who repeatedly divides themself this way? Does it make a difference in the amount of 'goo' they have available? Will they steadily become smaller as they lose goo? Or can they constantly replace it?

 

[Triskelion]

All very good questions. It would seem that changelings are individuals, and so not necessarily able to disseminate. The series doesn't discuss their reproductive methods; Odo was one of many "infant" entities launched out into the galaxy.

Yes, you can pinch or dollop off a piece, as the female changeling did for research into the disease, and as Odo did too. The sample retained its morphological properties, but not its individuality, nor awareness, at least on an intelligent basis. This suggests that the intelligence is either an emergent property of "critical mass" - or that it is part of some internal networked structure of discreet cells. The changelings did consist of individual cells, IIRC. Bashir studied them flowing on his monitor at one point.

Gender was meaningless to the Changelings by this point in their evolution, so it is doubtful sexual procreation would be needed; perhaps asexual reproduction through "spores" or "cuttings" - or perhaps through some form of mitosis. It was never mentioned.

If the cutting was kept in a proper container, I would guess it could retain its properties indefinitely, but that the time away from its body without cellular degradation would be finite.

 

[hux]

Based on other statements made during the run of the show, I would assert that when Odo appears to have eyes, he actually does have functioning eyes.

That idea is slightly twisting my melons. How on Earth can a blob of gloop manufacture something as complex as an eye at will? Surely that would suggest he can also produce other materials (organic or otherwise) that are less difficult to manage in terms of function. With that in mind, I reckon if you ate a slice of Oddo, it would taste like a warm, crisp, peshwari naan, would digest as such and would excrete in a similar fashion.

Only minutes after its glorious release, would it then revert back to Oddo juice.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

How on Earth can a blob of gloop manufacture something as complex as an eye at will? Surely that would suggest he can also produce other materials (organic or otherwise) that are less difficult to manage in terms of function.

Are you arguing from irreducible complexity? An eye may be a complex mechanism, but there are no such things as "eye cells." There are collections of cells of varying degrees of complexity that operate together, and each of them has simpler evolutionary predecessors. It's perfectly feasible that shapeshifters perceive light in some manner. They certainly don't need to shapeshift a nervous system to feel pain (The Begotten). And indeed, a sense of sight might be something that shapeshifters will naturally manifest as they mature, not necessarily requiring that they are taught how to do it.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

All very good questions. It would seem that changelings are individuals, and so not necessarily able to disseminate. The series doesn't discuss their reproductive methods; Odo was one of many "infant" entities launched out into the galaxy.

Yes, you can pinch or dollop off a piece, as the female changeling did for research into the disease, and as Odo did too. The sample retained its morphological properties, but not its individuality, nor awareness, at least on an intelligent basis. This suggests that the intelligence is either an emergent property of "critical mass" - or that it is part of some internal networked structure of discreet cells. The changelings did consist of individual cells, IIRC. Bashir studied them flowing on his monitor at one point.

Do we know that for sure, though? When Odo was found he supposedly took months (or was it years) to attain meaningful interaction with anyone. Perhaps, if you leave a sample long enough it will develop into a baby changeling.

Especially if changelings are capable of regenerating their 'goo', I would expect that the sample might continue to slowly grow until it was large/complex enough to be considered a new changeling.

 

[hux]

Are you arguing from irreducible complexity? An eye may be a complex mechanism, but there are no such things as "eye cells." There are collections of cells of varying degrees of complexity that operate together, and each of them has simpler evolutionary predecessors. It's perfectly feasible that shapeshifters perceive light in some manner. They certainly don't need to shapeshift a nervous system to feel pain (The Begotten). And indeed, a sense of sight might be something that shapeshifters will naturally manifest as they mature, not necessarily requiring that they are taught how to do it.

Am I a creationist? No, we haven't had them in Britain since....well since we shipped them off to America.

No, i'm arguing that if you can manufacture working eyes simply by mimicking them then it stands to reason that you should also be able to manufacture any number of less complicated things (organic or otherwise) simply by mimicking them (i.e bread)

There's no way I'm buying Oddo creates actual, functioning eyes when he creates the appearance of eyes. As far as i'm concerned, he senses somehow and then exhibits this awareness through conventional means (i.e when someone says....have a look at this, he looks at it with his eyes (it's polite) but truth be told, he could have looked at it with his arse if he wanted)

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Are you arguing from irreducible complexity? An eye may be a complex mechanism, but there are no such things as "eye cells." There are collections of cells of varying degrees of complexity that operate together, and each of them has simpler evolutionary predecessors. It's perfectly feasible that shapeshifters perceive light in some manner. They certainly don't need to shapeshift a nervous system to feel pain (The Begotten). And indeed, a sense of sight might be something that shapeshifters will naturally manifest as they mature, not necessarily requiring that they are taught how to do it.

Am I a creationist? No, we haven't had them in Britain since....well since we shipped them off to America.

So you don't have creationists, you just make them?

No, i'm arguing that if you can manufacture working eyes simply by mimicking them then it stands to reason that you should also be able to manufacture any number of less complicated things (organic or otherwise) simply by mimicking them (i.e bread)

Which is why I compare your critique to irreducible complexity: you assume a fundamental impossibility of having a functioning eye without creating it whole. While I agree that it most circumstances, Odo sees with all his cells, there is no reason to believe he could not imitate nerves, muscles and tissues from which an eye could be composed. Of course, Odo is a poor example, and he admits he cannot evade biological scans like other shapeshifters, suggesting limitations to what he can personally accomplish. However, it was within the knowledge of the society of the Founders to create an eye from changeling physiology: Odo was made human. Would being able to do this mean that simpler objects are more easily achieved? Not necessarily. Taking on not just the form, but the essence, of an organism probably requires practice, and the experience of imitating a humanoid--and doing so only imperfectly--may not contribute completely to imitating other organism, especially those in other kingdoms. Perhaps their are challlenges when it comes to embodying organisms that have different types and numbers of DNA.

 

[Kilana2]

Also after the series ended what became of the Jem'Hadar, the vorta and their forces scattered everywhere?

This is dealt with in the Litverse:

Worlds of DS9 - Olympus Descending

 

[Shada Dukal]

When it comes to the mechanism of changeling’s abilities, there are several things I never managed to wrap my head around. First of all, I can’t understand whether the act of a living creature duplication involves a strict cell-for-cell copying or it is only a surface structure imitation. Having in mind that Odo could not eat and drink, I guess shapeshifters can’t achieve functional identity and their transformation affects the appearance and morphological structure only. What is more, blood samples were often required as a proof for being a real humanoid, which suggests that changelings don’t replicate vascular system and blood. Still, the changeling impersonating Martok managed to overcome it though it was never fully explained.

The second inconsistency is the problem with the mass, it goes against the principle of mass conservation. When Odo relaxes, he is a goo-like substance that weighs no more than 5 kg. When he assumes his humanoid shape, he is a full-grown male weighing about 80 kg. How come 5 kilos can produce 80 kilos? Respectively, when he returns to his jelly state where do the remaining 75 kg go? Since it was not mentioned that the transformation involved energy production or consumption, we can’t assume that this is a case of mass-energy conversion.

Third, Odo could imitate a Tarkelean hawk that consists of separate feathers, a beak, legs, wings, talons, small details that require precision and coordination but he could not come up with a decent approximation of a nose and ears.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

When it comes to the mechanism of changeling’s abilities, there are several things I never managed to wrap my head around. First of all, I can’t understand whether the act of a living creature duplication involves a strict cell-for-cell copying or it is only a surface structure imitation. Having in mind that Odo could not eat and drink, I guess shapeshifters can’t achieve functional identity and their transformation affects the appearance and morphological structure only. What is more, blood samples were often required as a proof for being a real humanoid, which suggests that changelings don’t replicate vascular system and blood. Still, the changeling impersonating Martok managed to overcome it though it was never fully explained.

Blood samples were required because changeling goo - once separated from the changeling's body - would automatically revert to its natural state. Therefore when you take a blood sample from a changeling, blood comes out, but after a moment that blood turns back into goo. I remember a couple of scenes where Starfleet blood testers actually stood there shaking the blood samples for a few seconds to make sure.

It was later established that once the Changelings realized the effectiveness of this test, they quickly devised a way around it - they were capable of holding actual blood inside their body in such a way that when they were given a blood test, only the actual blood was released and not any part of their own body.

Considering the fact that scanning technology was incapable of telling the difference between a changeling and a human, I think you have to assume that the changeling's transformation is fully internal as well as external.

I'm not sure that it was ever actually established that a changeling can't eat. Did Odo ever actually say he couldn't eat, or just that he didn't need to/want to?

Even though, Odo had very poor control over his abilities by comparison to the founders.

The second inconsistency is the problem with the mass, it goes against the principle of mass conservation. When Odo relaxes, he is a goo-like substance that weighs no more than 5 kg. When he assumes his humanoid shape, he is a full-grown male weighing about 80 kg. How come 5 kilos can produce 80 kilos? Respectively, when he returns to his jelly state where do the remaining 75 kg go? Since it was not mentioned that the transformation involved energy production or consumption, we can’t assume that this is a case of mass-energy conversion.

There is no way around this. This is the suspension of disbelief you have to have to accept the idea of a changeling as even being possible in the first place.

Third, Odo could imitate a Tarkelean hawk that consists of separate feathers, a beak, legs, wings, talons, small details that require precision and coordination but he could not come up with a decent approximation of a nose and ears.

As I said, Odo's control over his abilities was generally poor. It's also possible that he spent much more time practicing on the Hawk than he did on his humanoid appearance. Especially during the first years of his life - he basically hated his 'father' and he at best tolerated the other humanoids around him during the Cardassian occupation. Maybe he just wasn't motivated enough to want to perfect his humanoid features until well into the series (by which point, he'd long gotten used to looking the way he looked, and everybody else had gotten used to him looking that way).

 

[Triskelion]

Well, once Odo did demonstrate the illusion of drinking coffee, so as to fit into a restaurant setting, so it suggests he cannot digest food.

As for being able to replicate a hawk and not a humanoid face, consider this: to a humanoid, he replicated the hawk perfectly; to a hawk, he replicated the humanoid perfectly. Perhaps to a hawk his replication was equally bizarre as his humanoid face was to a humanoid.

As for the conservation of mass, you have to guess that it had something to do with his ability to disperse his density - and that the hawk weighed actually a lot more than a normal hawk its size. But who knows.

Cells are enormously complicated machines. I highly doubt they were copied down to the subcellular level. Odo's appearance suggests that the changes were cosmetic only. And that each cell would also have the capability of sensation in all its forms, such that he could direct his senses to function as they normally might.

Of course, Odo didn't need to respire or blink as humans do, but he respired and blinked, and probably not through conscious effort. I attribute these aspects as having evolved from solid form, and retaining those subconscious autonomic capabilities - and all other cellular functions - without the original cellular compartmentalization.

Perhaps also, the more basic senses were transmitted through reproductive instinct. Since we don't really know much about how Changelings reproduce, we can only speculate as to the basic biological - and neuropsychological factors in operation. Meaning, you can feasibly get sense awareness and higher intelligence through normal maturation instincts without having to learn how cells work or necessarily be exposed to a model species (as pertained to Voyager's Silver Blood).



Come to think of it, here's another question: If senses and intelligence were genetically preconditioned features of Changelings, why shouldn't Odo have been able to perceive IR or UV light, or sense magnetic polar shifts, or even perceive something beyond typical human senses - like Betazoid telepathy, for example? Here is a device that might have added another dimension to his story: an evolved sensory perception beyond human limitations.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

What evidence do we have about Odo's weight? Do we know that he weighed 150-200 lbs, not 2-4 ounces? Perhaps he expands significantly from his natural volume in order to appear humanoid.