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Gamerant article: Star Trek:" What Made Kes and Neelix’s Relationship So Inappropriate"?

rocketscientist

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Here's a new (I believe) article on Gamerant examining Neelix and Kes' relationship on Voyager. I'm in the camp that the relationship and the characters themselves were an extremely bad call and haven't aged well at all. I think the writers had a problem with it too, leading to the breakup of Kes and Neelix. It should never have happened in the first place, but at least it ended. It was a shame they didn't get rid of Neelix along with Kes. Actually, I think Kes' character could possibly have been rehabilitated. If it came down between the two of them, I'd ditch Neelix. Anyway, here's the article.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertain...ddb4bd11b24056997f2bad6e9da761&ei=16#comments
 
I wouldn't say the characters were a bad call. But the relationship as portrayed was handled poorly.
Neelix came across as a slimy, jealous character a lot of the time.
I agree with this but not because of the age difference. You have to understand that Kes was equivalent to 20ish, not 2 for crying out loud, years old and he was 30ish. It's not that taboo even among humans now. I was happy Kes gave him the boot after "Warlord." Neelix was my least favorite character on the series and I thought he got a lot more tolerable once the relationship jealousy thing was put to rest. But on the flip side it seemed like the writers didn't know what to do with Kes once the relationship ended. Which was a shame. I truly liked the potential Kes had and wish they had kept her around when Seven arrived.
 
Shipping any non-Ocampa character with Kes would have been problematic, because her species has such an accelerated life cycle. Remember, at age two, a human child may or may not be potty-trained. A two-year-old Ocampa is physically (and sexually) mature. A human four-year-old is considered too young for full-day schooling, and may not have outgrown nap time. An Ocampa woman typically becomes a mother at four. And, Ocampa die at about age nine, an age at which most humans haven't even started puberty.

In light of that, I don't see any character on Voyager being anything but problematic for Kes... even Harry was 11 times her age! And Neelix's jealousy only made a dubious situation worse. Maybe Neelix would be more popular if he hadn't made such an... icky first impression. There was, IMO, a lot to like about him.

Ergo, it can be argued that the best romantic pairing for Kes was... none at all.
 
Personally, I think that the realtionship was OK to start with but that it was doomed as soon as both of them became crewmembers (or "valuable colleagues") on Voyager.

Kes quickly found a life on Voyager. She started to grow vegetables and flowers in the Hydroponc Bay, then became a nurse. She found friends among the other crewmembers and had no problems at all to adapt to the life on board a Starfleet ship.

Neelix, on the other hand quickly realized that on Voyager, he was basically nothing. OK, he had some knowledge about the part of space they were in, he could find food and other supplies here and there but that was it.

For Janeway, relying on Neelix "only proved fifty percent effective. he got them help some of the time and into trouble all the rest" as it was written in the Voyager book The Escape by Dean Wesley Smith and Kristine Kathryn Rush.

So in order to show his importance, he became frenzy and came up with all his stunts, becoming cook, naming himself Morale Officer, becoming a journalist and making the program "A Briefing With Neelix" and all that.

Unfortunately, his insecurity also made him extremely jealous when it came to his relation with Kes. That ultimately led to them drifting apart and the break-up was inevitable.

Unfortunately, all of that was very badly handled by the Voyager writers. Instead of breaking up the relationship in season 2, most likely some time after the episode Parturition and doing that during two-three episodes where the reasons for the break-up could have been showed up and analyzed, they let the whole thing hang into the air until season 3 and the episode Warlord where they did break it up in the most ridiculous way.

Berman, Braga and the other writers were downright lousy when it came to describing relationships, both in TNG and in Voyager. Sometimes I wonder why they even bothered since they couldn't handle it.

Shipping any non-Ocampa character with Kes would have been problematic, because her species has such an accelerated life cycle. Remember, at age two, a human child may or may not be potty-trained. A two-year-old Ocampa is physically (and sexually) mature. A human four-year-old is considered too young for full-day schooling, and may not have outgrown nap time. An Ocampa woman typically becomes a mother at four. And, Ocampa die at about age nine, an age at which most humans haven't even started puberty.

In light of that, I don't see any character on Voyager being anything but problematic for Kes... even Harry was 11 times her age! And Neelix's jealousy only made a dubious situation worse. Maybe Neelix would be more popular if he hadn't made such an... icky first impression. There was, IMO, a lot to like about him.

Ergo, it can be argued that the best romantic pairing for Kes was... none at all.

In fact, the nine-year lifespan was even worse than the Kes-Neelix relationship in its worst moments. It should never have been created in the first place.

Obviously, it was something they came up with just because they had never had something like that before, not realizing that a species with such a short lifetme could never develope to anything more than primates.

And then they did what they always did, just didn't care that it didn't work instead of correcting it by coming up with a way to prolong the lifespan which would have created a lot of opportunities in many ways for Kes.
 
Obviously, it was something they came up with just because they had never had something like that before, not realizing that a species with such a short lifetme could never develope to anything more than primates.

That... pretty much sums it up. But it wasn't the only time they play fast and loose with that. Look at the Jem'Hadar, whose physical and cognitive development made even the Ocampa look dead slow by comparison.

Kes quickly found a life on Voyager. She started to grow vegetables and flowers in the Hydroponc Bay, then became a nurse. She found friends among the other crewmembers and had no problems at all to adapt to the life on board a Starfleet ship.

Very true. And because of her lack of preconceptions, she helped the EMH to become the person he did.

Neelix, on the other hand quickly realized that on Voyager, he was basically nothing. OK, he had some knowledge about the part of space they were in, he could find food and other supplies here and there but that was it.

Because he was written that way. Given that he maintained his own ship, he probably could have been useful in engineering, and given that he survived in the rough and tumble world of smuggling, it's easy to see why (in alternate timelines) he did fine in security. But the writers turned him into a buffoon dressed in sofa upholstery.

Harry was in a similar boat, only he vacillated more. Instead of being clueless most of the time, he was clueless now and then and competent the rest of the time. Not sure which was worse...

Berman, Braga and the other writers were downright lousy when it came to describing relationships, both in TNG and in Voyager. Sometimes I wonder why they even bothered since they couldn't handle it.

Do I really have to say it?
 
I wouldn't say the characters were a bad call. But the relationship as portrayed was handled poorly.

I agree with this but not because of the age difference. You have to understand that Kes was equivalent to 20ish, not 2 for crying out loud, years old and he was 30ish. It's not that taboo even among humans now. I was happy Kes gave him the boot after "Warlord." Neelix was my least favorite character on the series and I thought he got a lot more tolerable once the relationship jealousy thing was put to rest. But on the flip side it seemed like the writers didn't know what to do with Kes once the relationship ended. Which was a shame. I truly liked the potential Kes had and wish they had kept her around when Seven arrived.

I always construed Neelix as more than 40-ish than 30-ish. He's been around in the school of hard knocks, and an embittered, cynical man when we first meet him.

With Kes only being in her late teens (human equivalent), what made their relation inappropriate in my eyes wasn't necessarily the age difference as such, but the manipulative situation and power imbalances at the root of it. Kes escaped her home population, was captured by the Kazon and made a slave, and then apparently was befriended by Neelix in some way, which made her dependent upon him for her escape. And even though in a certain way she may have been indebted to him to some extent for gaining her freedom, he seemed to want to 'claim' her after that.
 
In general, while I think it was questionable to ship anyone with Kes from a writing perspective, I tend to give Neelix a pass. This is mainly because of "Before and After", where we see two other men (who we know to be honorable*) in similar relationships. Whether it should have been the case or not, it is presumably considered canon that an Ocampa has the cognitive capacity to handle a relationship with a lover who looks their age, even if they are chronologically much older.

*Remember "Blood Fever"... if there was ever a time when a man could rationalize jumping a woman's bones, this was it. And Tom restrained himself.
 
Here's a new (I believe) article on Gamerant examining Neelix and Kes' relationship on Voyager. I'm in the camp that the relationship and the characters themselves were an extremely bad call and haven't aged well at all. I think the writers had a problem with it too, leading to the breakup of Kes and Neelix. It should never have happened in the first place, but at least it ended. It was a shame they didn't get rid of Neelix along with Kes. Actually, I think Kes' character could possibly have been rehabilitated. If it came down between the two of them, I'd ditch Neelix. Anyway, here's the article.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertain...ddb4bd11b24056997f2bad6e9da761&ei=16#comments

@rocketscientist, ironically, your avatar is a known and successful pedophile.
 
She was the child, I suppose, of the show and should have been treated as such, except among her own people.

Then they should have made Tuvok retire, and pity him like a boomer who doesn't know technology, for being a hundred years old.

Kes looks like she she's twenty, and they treat her like she's twenty, because the crew is dumb. Kes has the emotional maturity of an adult, but the life experience of a 2 year old, but she remembers every moment of that two years, meanwhile a human being after 40 years of life struggels to draw together a coherent 30 minutes of home brain cinema.

Janeway was the real asshole acting like she was way older than she really was (39 in the pilot) because she was afraid that some might think that she was playing dress up.

A mistake on the show, actually canon, says that she was 27 in the pilot.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kathryn_Janeway#Early_life

Or you know, maybe she was 27, so that it was less gross when she banged Tom.
 
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Those websites want your "foot traffic" in order to increase their ad revenue.

By the way, some of you folks are a little crazy trying to apply human conventions and rituals to fictional species.

Neelix and Kes were not having sex, they were not even living in the same quarters.

Remember when Tom fought Neelix to get Kes?

Would Tom have fought so hard to get the "woman" if he knew that she was pre-sexual, or that her undescribed sexual organ was probably between her shoulder blades?

Yes.

Since we saw her give birth to his child from between her shoulder blades.

Never mind.

Tom will stick it any where, because he's a pig.

Of course Tom Stuck it out with an old lady version of Kes who would still have been considered a child by the more dogmatic on this board, till death.
 
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By the way, some of you folks are a little crazy trying to apply human conventions and rituals to fictional species.

Because sexual exploitation of the innocent doesn't sit well with most of us. However mature Kes might look and act, her chronological age is the elephant in the turbolift.

Of course Tom Stuck it out with an old lady version of Kes who would still been considered a child by the more dogmatic on this board, till death.
We don't know how long she was sn old lady... when Andrew was born, presumably about a year earlier, she still looked fairly young.
 
her chronological age is the elephant in the turbolift.
Should the crew have been offering her a bubba and reading her Flotter stories at bedtime? I mean she is only two. Despite how mature she looks she might protest being treated like a child. ;)
Don't believe me? Hear it from the character herself:
EMH: Well, how are you, Kes?
KES: I didn't think anyone would still be working at this hour.
EMH: Just finishing up the summary analyses from last week's mission.
KES: I was supposed to do that.
EMH: Yes you were.
KES: I'm sorry. I'll do them as soon as I can.
EMH: Although I'm not designed to act as ship's counsellor, I've been programmed with enough psychological knowledge to be troubled by your behaviour.
KES: I'm a little late.
EMH: Gallivanting around after hours is beside the point. The fact is, you're becoming increasingly unpredictable, given to swings of mood and emotion. As your doctor and your mentor, I'd be remiss not calling that to your attention, for your own sake.
KES: Doctor, I know that you care about me and that you have my best interests at heart, but everyone seems to be treating me like I'm still a child. I'm three years old now. If I'm attracted to someone it's my business, not the whole ship's.
EMH: I'm certainly not trying to interfere. You can lead your life any way you please.
KES: I know that you care what happens to me, I won't forget that.
http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/314.htm
 
In Fury I thought old crazy Kes came back in time to bang hot young Neelix, but then she ran away with herself instead, and I thought the story was going to get greenscreen gay... But it didn't.
 
I never had a problem with any of it. She had a shorter lifespan, she matured faster, she's basically my cat. The attitude in the show was that she was an adult and they treated her like an adult. Maybe Neelix wasn't great with jealousy but even still they at least dealt with that as a story element. People are often jealous in the real world but can change. I don't think he set his sights on her because he wanted to fuck a two year old.
 
I wonder if the people who object to Kes' relationship feel similarly about Vulcans courting Humans (or vice-versa), Humans and Elves, Humans and shapeshifted Dragons, Humans with (insert-immortal-beings-here), et cetera. As long as every participant is sufficiently mature for their species and no one is being deceived or coerced, age differences are - to me - one of the least troublesome aspects of fictional romances involving fantasy or science-fiction races.
 
Should the crew have been offering her a bubba and reading her Flotter stories at bedtime?

Only if she goes running up to them with arms upraised in full "I wanna pickie uppie" mode, LOL.

I never had a problem with any of it. She had a shorter lifespan, she matured faster, she's basically my cat. The attitude in the show was that she was an adult and they treated her like an adult.

I was mostly able to deal with it as well, largely because I regarded Tom and Harry and even Neelix as honorable men. They would not have exploited a vulnerable individual. For that matter, Janeway wouldn't have let them do so.

It's more a matter of just what goes through our head when we think of the term "two-year-old", because we're familiar with humans of that age.

I don't think he set his sights on her because he wanted to :censored: a two year old.

Certainly not. I think a lot of the crap Neelix gets is because he's a disliked character. People just want to add "dated a two-year-old" to his list of sins. Regardless, it seems understood that because Kes was physically adult, he's an exploiter, not a full blown pervert.

I wonder if the people who object to Kes' relationship feel similarly about Vulcans courting Humans (or vice-versa), Humans and Elves, Humans and shapeshifted Dragons, Humans with (insert-immortal-beings-here),

Generally not, because they mentalize the notion that once a person is legally adult and physically mature, they can look after themselves.

On the other hand, if the long-lived species has, say, a 50-year long childhood, and a 25-year-old member of their species looks like a third-grader, the person might gain some blowback from his own people if he was dating a 25-year-old human woman.
 
I don't have a problem with her absolute age. If she's mature for her species (even if barely), it's OK for me to a certain extent. I don't view it any differently in that respect than a 18-year-old hooking up with a 40-year-old, which admittedly I would have seconds thoughts at, but not view it as outright abuse. As I said earlier, it's more their history that is a bit problematic to me.
 
I don't have a problem with her absolute age. If she's mature for her species (even if barely), it's OK for me to a certain extent. I don't view it any differently in that respect than a 18-year-old hooking up with a 40-year-old, which admittedly I would have seconds thoughts at, but not view it as outright abuse. As I said earlier, it's more their history that is a bit problematic to me.

She was a Kazon Slave, at abouts very close to her 1st birthday.

There's two ways of inspecting this situation.

1. The Kazon left her alone sexually because even they can tell the difference between right and wrong.

2. The Kazon did not leave her alone sexually because she looked like she was older than 14, and that's where they draw the line between child and adult.

Therefore...

Either Neelix is less woke than the Kazon or Voyager's crew is more prim than the Kazon.
 
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