Few things about 'Clues'

[JesterFace]

I made a thread about this last summer but it's few days past one year old, rules are rules, here's another thread on the subject....

It might not make complete sense but I'm trying to make sense of the few days the entire crew lost while Paxans were wiping their memory.

First attempt took one day, another attempt another one. Data still says is was only 30 seconds. Could it be explained with the wormhole for the crew, they lost a day or two because the wormhole twisted time or something?

Another thing, have you paid attention in this episode to the sound that sounds when someone contacts, for example, the bridge.
I don't think any other episode has that bleep? It can be heard many times in different scenes. I don't remember what it was before on DVD but online it's.... odd.

Also the look Picard makes in the end when Data says that an investigation of the wormhole might be hazardous one and a probe might be enough. Looks like Picard almost knew that going back might not be a good idea.

 

[Reymet_2]

Could it be explained with the wormhole for the crew, they lost a day or two because the wormhole twisted time or something?

In Cause and Effect, they encountered a ship that lost 90 years because of a temporal anomaly, so why not?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

First attempt took one day, another attempt another one. Data still says is was only 30 seconds.

Yep. That's why the ending of that episode makes no sense, because the Enterprise is still missing a couple of days and they'd find out their chronometers were off the next time they went to a Starbase or contacted another Starship.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Dr. Crusher in the medical bay with the candlestick.

 

[at Quark's]

Yep. That's why the ending of that episode makes no sense, because the Enterprise is still missing a couple of days and they'd find out their chronometers were off the next time they went to a Starbase or contacted another Starship.

<The first time they synchronize again>

<Riker: > That's ...weird? There's a time differential of 5.31 stardates between our own chronometer and the one at the starbase.
<Data, hastily adopting Janeway inflections: > Commander, we're Starfleet Officers ... weird is part of the job.
<Riker:> Data, that doesn't sound like you? But yeah, I agree, those aren't the droids we're looking for.

 

[Mojochi]

Yep. That's why the ending of that episode makes no sense, because the Enterprise is still missing a couple of days and they'd find out their chronometers were off the next time they went to a Starbase or contacted another Starship

From their first go-round

Sir, I should re-align the ship's clock with Starbase Four-ten's subspace signal to adjust for the time distortion.

We're lucky we didn't end up half-way across the galaxy and in the middle of next week.

The final outcome would eventually have the same result. Although I don't recall it being among the lines of dialog that 2nd time, it eventually would be said & done, just the same.

They EXPECT their clock to be wrong, because of the supposed wormhole's temporal distortion effect, which they'll automatically realign with Starfleet afterward. They believe they jumped in time 2 days, in the space of 30 seconds.

The bigger issue was that the ship's clock had to be deliberately altered to BE wrong, & read like only 30 seconds had passed, when days had, which is something only Data & Geordi were apparently capable of doing & hiding.

When they start investigating the clues, that one is a big deal, & frankly it'll never be 100% hideable. There'll always be a trace that someone changed it, if they dig deep enough, just like there'll always be a trace that Worf's arm was broken. They shouldn't really be capable of hiding those facts from their own ability to detect them again. It's hard reality.

Picard's plan was just to fool the crew well enough that they wouldn't go looking that deeply the 2nd time. IMHO that's a crap plan. You can't be 100% certain you won't unearth them eventually, or that you've even sussed out all the traces of evidence in the 1st place. These things may come up later, & that risks outing the whole thing all over again.

As such, the only logical solution is to order Data to pretend to lie to the crew, temporarily, until they reach a safe distance, outside the range of the Paxans, & then divulge the entirety of events, so that an accurate record can be kept, in the event any of the truth gets stumbled upon, for one unforeseeable reason or another. This was a dumb call by Picard IMHO.... Mr. "Your 1st duty is to the truth"

 

[at Quark's]

As such, the only logical solution is to order Data to pretend to lie to the crew, temporarily, until they reach a safe distance, outside the range of the Paxans, & then divulge the entirety of events, so that an accurate record can be kept, in the event any of the truth gets stumbled upon, for one unforeseeable reason or another. This was a dumb call by Picard IMHO.... Mr. "Your 1st duty is to the truth"

Then he would effectively have lied to the Paxans, so also a falsehood.

(Probably the wiser and more logical one, but still.)

 

[Oddish]

Thanks to the first go-round, Picard knew what modifications had to be made for the charade to be complete, and devoid of problematic clues. And the crew made it so.

 

[Mojochi]

Then he would effectively have lied to the Paxans, so also a falsehood.

(Probably the wiser and more logical one, but still.)

Right. Carry out the same plan. Find a way to covertly clue Data in, that he'll ultimately lie to the Paxans & temporarily lie to the crew, & then divulge things later, maybe much later, when there's no risk.

Is it fully ethical? I suppose not. Is it the lesser of two evils, for the greater good? Yeah, kind of. It's ultimately a choice between Picard & Data conspiring to lie to everyone they've sworn their oaths to, (which they do) or to instead lie to those that forced them into this situation at gun point, threatening to otherwise destroy them, & thereby deserving of no such equivalent respect or loyalty IMHO.

Thanks to the first go-round, Picard knew what modifications had to be made for the charade to be complete, and devoid of problematic clues. And the crew made it so.

Picard thinks he knows what evidence to hide. It's not 100% guaranteed they've sussed out all of it on the 1st go-round, nor that they have sufficient capability to conceal it from their own ability to expose it later. They are mighty investigators indeed. The plan they carried out is still a gamble.

Plus, leaving the Paxans as they were, capitulates to their ongoing treatment of others who unwittingly enter their space. They're just going to keep doing this to anyone else blindly tramping thru there, & something like this could happen again, or maybe already has, & they just murdered them

If Starfleet is eventually made aware of them, later on, they are in a much better position to more effectively high quarantine the area to prevent further encounters with anybody, & more effectively ensure that the Paxans can have their isolation. You'd actually be helping them have what they want, without them knowing you're doing that for them, while simultaneously safeguarding others from that threat

It's a win/win IMHO, all for the low low price of one lie to the jerks who'd meant to kill you anyhow, simply because their usual plan didn't work this time. They're kind of dicks imho lol

 

[at Quark's]

Is it fully ethical? I suppose not. Is it the lesser of two evils, for the greater good? Yeah, kind of. It's ultimately a choice between Picard & Data conspiring to lie to everyone they've sworn their oaths to, (which they do) or to instead lie to those that forced them into this situation at gun point, threatening to otherwise destroy them, & thereby deserving of no such equivalent respect or loyalty IMHO.

I agree.

The problem of course really is with the Paxan attitude, which is so xenophobic that they don't realize that the odds of being bothered by a trustworthy Starfleet neighbor are actually lower if the highest Starfleet echelon knows of their existence and (gently) steers civilians away from that area and keep the 'military' out.

 

[Mojochi]

I agree.

The problem of course really is with the Paxan attitude, which is so xenophobic that they don't realize that the odds of being bothered by a trustworthy Starfleet neighbor are actually lower if the highest Starfleet echelon knows of their existence and (gently) steers civilians away from that area and keep the 'military' out.

I always laugh at that last line the Paxan says.

"You are a most unusual species. Worthy of a 2nd chance"

Hey, you know... speaking of how unusual & worthy we are. Maybe you don't try to kill us or wipe our memories & we help you out with this scheme you're running, so you don't gotta be murdering folks who you can't knock TF out. We do this dealing with other species thing like a LOT

 

[Oddish]

It would have made more sense if Data's fiction had included an instruction to Picard to drop a few warning buoys in the area, to keep people far away from Paxan space. It's got to be difficult for them to keep capturing ships and modifying the crew's memories.

 

[Mojochi]

It would have made more sense if Data's fiction had included an instruction to Picard to drop a few warning buoys in the area, to keep people far away from Paxan space. It's got to be difficult for them to keep capturing ships and modifying the crew's memories.

Didn't they put out a hazard advisory at the end? It's not much, but at least it's something

 

[DonIago]

Hm. In a weird way this episode is the opposite of "Cause and Effect", in that in that episode they're trying to leave clues to themselves to break themselves out of the temporal causality loop, while in this episode they're trying to hide any...clues...regarding how much time has elapsed.

Or, I suppose, technically C&E is the opposite of this episode.

 

[at Quark's]

Hm. In a weird way this episode is the opposite of "Cause and Effect", in that in that episode they're trying to leave clues to themselves to break themselves out of the temporal causality loop, while in this episode they're trying to hide any...clues...regarding how much time has elapsed.

Or, I suppose, technically C&E is the opposite of this episode.

perhaps they should've couples those ideas in episodes back-to-back. For example they're caught in a timeloop in the first episode, and they 'escape' at the end .... only to discover that the situation outside their timeloop has become so bad they'd rather be in the timeloop again, to they're trying to erase all clues before diving in again ...

(And I suppose the totality of it should be playing in the Mirror Universe, so as to not 'disturb' the prime timeline.)

 

[DonIago]

perhaps they should've couples those ideas in episodes back-to-back. For example they're caught in a timeloop in the first episode, and they 'escape' at the end .... only to discover that the situation outside their timeloop has become so bad they'd rather be in the timeloop again, to they're trying to erase all clues before diving in again ...

(And I suppose the totality of it should be playing in the Mirror Universe, so as to not 'disturb' the prime timeline.)

I think having them back-to-back might have been a bit much...

 

[JesterFace]

I have a feeling that after that strange look Picard gave near the end of the episode, like he almost knew something was wrong, the truth was eventually revealed.

 

[Oddish]

I have a feeling that after that strange look Picard gave near the end of the episode, like he almost knew something was wrong, the truth was eventually revealed.

If it was, then it probably didn't matter. Starfleet gave strict orders that the Paxans remain undisturbed. A ship went back and dropped a few warning buoys, regarding the dangerous "wormhole". The Paxans were left alone until they evolved into a less xenophobic culture, and emerged from hiding.

 

[janeruin]

I always want Data to just explain to Picard from the get-go that he’s following Picard’s orders in the interest of the safety of the ship, and that they should leave the area, instead of just repeating “I cannot answer that.”

 

[Mojochi]

I always want Data to just explain to Picard from the get-go that he’s following Picard’s orders in the interest of the safety of the ship, and that they should leave the area, instead of just repeating “I cannot answer that.”

It does raise an interesting point about command. Does Picard even have the legitimate authority to order a subordinate to keep a secret from his later self, of does that later self have as much or more authority to countermand that order, given that they are equal ranks & possess more currently predominant authority, like an admiral does, or even a different captain might?

Nevermind whether it's even fair for an officer to do that to his subordinate (I think it isn't) but is it even sensible or proper? Surely he couldn't expect Data to hold to that order in the presence of an officer of equal or greater rank, demanding that he disregard it, no?

So ultimately, when things all start to unravel, Data could've just stated that he'd been ordered to not reveal more than he had, & if/when Picard ordered him presently to do so, or to disregard the previous order, he'd be off the hook on holding to it, no? It's one of those confusing sci-fi points of procedure, that are fantastical, dealing with memory erasure.