End of "The Host"

[Arpy]

Can you remember what you thought the first time you saw the last scene of "The Host"? Not necessarily in subsequent viewings or today, but back then. And if you didn't see it first run, when did you?

I just rematched it and remembered how I didn't like the unhappy ending. I was as winded by the events of the episode as the next viewer, but I thought, thought I didn't think it was right her and a woman, it wasn't right her and Riker either, but these are the circumstances of the Trill so so be it.

It seemed a failing of the "we'll make it work" ethos of TNG.

 

[charliefox]

It would seem that at the beginning of the story the Trill has a heterosexual relationship only by accident given that as a woman he/she doesn't mind pursuing with Beverly, and that means that the Trill is either bi or going out with women regardless of the gender of its host. Either way, it looks like TNG's roundabout way of acknowledging homosexuality.

 

[nascenticity]

I can't remember what I first thought when I saw this episode. But currently (I actually finished rewatching the episode a matter of minutes ago) I think this is one of Star Trek's first gay/bisexual characters. Odan tells Dr. Crusher, I still love you, and Dr. Crusher returns the sentiment. It's Beverly's inability to cope with her lover changing bodies in such a short time span that's a problem, rather than Odan's gender. If Beverly had been given more time to prepare and known more about the Trill symbiosis she'd probably have been fine with the change and still wanted to be with Odan. I almost like this idea more than having characters whose sole purpose is to be The Gay Character; make it clear that gender doesn't make a difference in matters of love in the 24th century, and then who cares if a woman falls in love with another woman, or a man falls in love with another man?

 

[Tenacity]

Bev's not into chicks.

 

[nascenticity]

Bev's not into chicks.

"I do love you" -- Beverly Crusher after Odan's been put in a female body

 

[nascenticity]

So I'd say she's into at least one chick.

 

[DonIago]

I seem to remember, as a gay man, being pretty annoyed about the whole thing the first time I saw it as a teenager, and wishing TPTB had had the balls to have Bev go for it. Especially in the late '80s/early '90s when it would have been significantly more impactful.

I've mellowed out a bit with age, as you do, and it bothers me less now, but I still kinda wish they'd gone for it. I understand Bev feeling she'd gotten in over her head as well, but this is an unfortunate case where it's difficult to separate in-universe reasoning from out-of-universe subtext.

But then, Trek's history with homosexuality in general has been pretty dismal. I thought it was great to finally see some straight-out (i.e. non-Trill, non-alien possession, etc.) recognition of same-gender preference in Beyond.

 

[nascenticity]

I seem to remember, as a gay man, being pretty annoyed about the whole thing the first time I saw it as a teenager, and wishing TPTB had had the balls to have Bev go for it. Especially in the late '80s/early '90s when it would have been significantly more impactful.

I've mellowed out a bit with age, as you do, and it bothers me less now, but I still kinda wish they'd gone for it. I understand Bev feeling she'd gotten in over her head as well, but this is an unfortunate case where it's difficult to separate in-universe reasoning from out-of-universe subtext.

But then, Trek's history with homosexuality in general has been pretty dismal. I thought it was great to finally see some straight-out (i.e. non-Trill, non-alien possession, etc.) recognition of same-gender preference in Beyond.

Understandable. I consider her assertion that she does still have feelings for Odan a small victory; but I suppose they could have parted on much more favorable terms.

I do wish Star Trek would play it less safe with LGBT issues. I do think they've addressed it more than people realize - Crusher, Riker, and Dax all are technically bisexual characters based on one-off episodes like this one, and while that's certainly not enough it's still something. Still I'd like to have seen more sooner. Hell - I'd even have accepted a "joking" line about Kirk and Spock as a couple in one of the flashback episodes like Trials and Tribbleations. Or more species like the Trill and that androgynous species, showing that modern Human gender norms aren't universal.

(I'm speaking as someone who's gay and gender-fluid here. I like episodes like The Host - but maybe I've become to complacent with accepting any hint of homosexual representation I can get no matter how inadequate.)

 

[Shikarnov]

I seem to remember, as a gay man, being pretty annoyed about the whole thing the first time I saw it as a teenager, and wishing TPTB had had the balls to have Bev go for it. Especially in the late '80s/early '90s when it would have been significantly more impactful.

I find your perspective interesting. Hasn't one of the main difficulties in the LBGT struggle been to convince people (voters and policy makers, particularly) that we're all born with certain natural attributes that are fundamental to who we are?

Why should Beverly Crusher be any different? She may love Odan, but there is a difference between love and sex. If my wife was suddenly changed into a man, I would still care every bit as much about him as I do now, but I wouldn't be sexually attracted to him any more than any other man.

It's easy to paint this as a matter of sensibility that can change or should evolve, but is it really? I believe the answer is no; and that most of us know who we are -- and who we're not. And that's okay.

I think the episodes ending was sad, but I think it was real.

 

[charliefox]

I seem to remember, as a gay man, being pretty annoyed about the whole thing the first time I saw it as a teenager, and wishing TPTB had had the balls to have Bev go for it. Especially in the late '80s/early '90s when it would have been significantly more impactful....

I think, had we discovered that Beverly had balls that would have been much more impactful, recognizing homosexualit and transgenderism at the same time.

 

[Vandervecken]

It would seem that at the beginning of the story the Trill has a heterosexual relationship only by accident given that as a woman he/she doesn't mind pursuing with Beverly, and that means that the Trill is either bi or going out with women regardless of the gender of its host. Either way, it looks like TNG's roundabout way of acknowledging homosexuality.

I think the idea was that the Trill could easily go in either direction--that is, hetero was no more an accident than the reverse.

As for Beverly, I echo Shikarnov's sentiment: I don't see why it's about "balls"; she's entitled to her sexual preference as much as any other human being. Why should she be more likely to "got for it"? than a character facing the reverse scenario? (I am pretty sure that if it had gone the reverse, some posters would write "oh not that old "cure" BS." So why would we expect that for a hetero character?) The idea here is that the Trill are like a wrecking ball to any sexual definitions for non-Trill.

 

[charliefox]

I think the idea was that the Trill could easily go in either direction--that is, hetero was no more an accident than the reverse.

As for Beverly, I don't see why it's about "balls"; she's entitled to her sexual preference as much as any other human being. The idea here is that the Trill are like a wrecking ball to any sexual definitions for non-Trill.

It was an accident in the sense that he could have fallen to a guy like Geordi for example. Remember the sultry way that Hugh says "Geordi", you could cut the sexual tension between the two of them with a knife.

 

[Vandervecken]

It was an accident in the sense that he could have fallen to a guy like Geordi for example. Remember the sultry way that Hugh says "Geordi", you could cut the sexual tension between the two of them with a knife.

But he liked Beverly--not Geordi. Presumably not just what is on the outside, but much more what is on the inside--that seems very likely for a Trill, especially an older one. There's nothing wrong either way. And I never detected what you're talking about with Geordi, at all.

Sure, it might have been written that way--not likely for a late 80s/early 90s broadcast show. That's on the writers. But the characters are just doing what they do per the sexual inclinations we know they have.

 

[charliefox]

But he liked Beverly--not Geordi. Presumably not just what is on the outside, but much more what is on the inside--that seems very likely for a Trill, especially an older one. There's nothing wrong either way. And I never detected what you're talking about with Geordi, at all.

Sure, it might have been written that way--not likely for a late 80s/early 90s broadcast show. That's on the writers. But the characters are just doing what they do per the sexual inclinations we know they have.

"On the inside" there's guts and inside of them there's food slowing turning into crap. forgive me, but I'd rather not think about that when I go out with someone.

 

[borgboy]

I had a relationship many years ago with a guy who was pretty confused about his identity and did discuss possibly transitioning to be a woman. I was completely supportive, but honest that since I'm gay that I wouldn't be having sex with him if that happened, but I'd still be in his life as a friend. In the long run the relationship ended for other reasons (he was an addict and verbally abusive, and was starting to get physically abusive when I ended things) and while I have no contact with him, I did check on him a couple of years ago online just out of curiosity and he hadn't actually transitioned. Whether he was actually trans or if that was just a manifestation of his general self loathing I have no idea.
So I get where Beverly was. She loved Odan, but she was straight. She didn't have anything to apologize for.
There's a TNG/DS9 crossover comic mini focusing on an attack against joined Trills that involves Odan and other prominent Trill characters. I don't want to spoil any important details but it is really great, although I wasn't thrilled about the ending.
I think the episode is even stranger when you consider how DS9 developed the Trills so that the symbiote works with the host, while TNG treats it more as the worm taking over the body.
I like the episode (Riker-Odan hooking up with Beverly is still way weird though, and seems kind of iffy on how much Riker could consent to Bev taking his body for a ride). As a gay man I found the episode positive if flawed. I remember some lesbian Trek fans I knew at the time were pretty happy with it although they wanted Bev to have accepted Odan as a woman.
I never saw this as Bev being bi at all. She loved Odan in a pure emotional way, but there's no indication she'd have sexual feelings for the new female host.
That's interesting that above Riker was referenced as bi. I didn't quite take that from The Host, although it does take him out of the standard heteronormative model. I'd compare him more to a straight man who was with a trans woman if anything, although that's not quite right either.

 

[DonIago]

I find your perspective interesting. Hasn't one of the main difficulties in the LBGT struggle been to convince people (voters and policy makers, particularly) that we're all born with certain natural attributes that are fundamental to who we are?

Why should Beverly Crusher be any different? She may love Odan, but there is a difference between love and sex. If my wife was suddenly changed into a man, I would still care every bit as much about him as I do now, but I wouldn't be sexually attracted to him any more than any other man.

It's easy to paint this as a matter of sensibility that can change or should evolve, but is it really? I believe the answer is no; and that most of us know who we are -- and who we're not. And that's okay.

I think the episodes ending was sad, but I think it was real.

Unless you're non-heterosexual yourself, I don't think you can imagine how much it would have meant to non-heterosexuals to have Bev make the more unexpected choice, and realism has nothing to do with it (because realistically there's no reason Bev couldn't have been bisexual or otherwise open to trying to make things work with Odan).

When you're a kid growing up in a heteronormative environment where non-straights seem to be at best politely tolerated and at wost killed for something they have no control over, any positive media indication that there are other people like you and that you're not alone is immensely valuable.

Instead the episode (I'm sure not intentionally) gave off an air of "Sorry kid...oh, did you think we'd take an actual risk with one of our characters? Not on this year's Trek!"

TPTB had the chance to make a statement in the spirit of TOS, and they blew it. And over time, they blew it repeatedly.

 

[DonIago]

I think, had we discovered that Beverly had balls that would have been much more impactful, recognizing homosexualit and transgenderism at the same time.

We'd have to wait until "Rules of Acquisition" for that kind of revelation! ;p

 

[JesterFace]

She loved Odan, but she was straight. She didn't have anything to apologize for.

This.

Changing from a body to another might be usual for Trills but Bev wasn't a Trill.

 

[Tenacity]

So I get where Beverly was. She loved Odan, but she was straight. She didn't have anything to apologize for.

Nutshell.

Bev was obviously excited to meet the new host for Oden, there was the big "oh" moment when her expectation of another male host suddenly vanished. Bev hadn't considered that Oden could just as easily be hosted by a female.

Bev not into chicks.

 

[nascenticity]

That's interesting that above Riker was referenced as bi. I didn't quite take that from The Host, although it does take him out of the standard heteronormative model. I'd compare him more to a straight man who was with a trans woman if anything, although that's not quite right either.

Oh that was a reference to the episode where he fell for a genderless alien (who later turned out to be female, but he didn't know that at first). Being interested in someone who isn't female would make him bi .

So I get where Beverly was. She loved Odan, but she was straight. She didn't have anything to apologize for.

I don't think anyone said she had something to apologize for. The writers do for not taking more risks with characters' sexualities.

Personally when she said "I still love you" it sounded like she meant "I still love you romantically like I did before." But I understand wishing the writers had made a stronger choice. Like Donlago said, it can be hard for straight people to understand how much this stuff means to non-straight people; emphatically making Beverly in love with a woman would have shown Trek fans in 1991 that people don't have to apologize for being gay or bi either.