Elder brother Robert Picard

[Triskelion]

I was just watching BoBW and Family and it occured to me. Jean Luc's brother Robert was obviously still in pain from a lifetime of his younger brother's greatness, memories of rivalry and some friendly abuse between them, and of course, resentment at his younger brother's freedom to "not be bound by tradition" - a freedom that Robert actually bought and paid for with his own responsibilities around the farm.

So yes, JL should have afforded Robert more freedom in their younger years, and should now at least acknowledge that had he helped out more, Robert could have had a break from the 18th century once in a while. Robert has legitimate grievances.

But here's where Robert loses my sympathy: he must cure this "poor, sick vine", spitting out the sentiment, when his younger brother came back to Earth and back home for the first time since well before Robert had a preteen son and was even married. And why was JL in the neighborhood? HE JUST SAVED EARTH FROM BORG ASSIMILATION.

Robert. That's not tough love - that's called being a pr-.

JL should have brought Beverly Crusher with him to shoot down Robert's ungrateful arrogance, with some pictures of what assimilation did to his brother - and would have done to his whole family by now were it not for Jean Luc.

Grapes? Fuck grapes, Robert!
Effing clodhopper.

 

[DonIago]

Just because you save the Earth doesn't mean you're suddenly an awesome person.

 

[Triskelion]

^Yeah, tell that story shuffling, Droney.

 

[Shikarnov]

I was just watching BoBW and Family and it occured to me. Jean Luc's brother Robert was obviously still in pain from a lifetime of his younger brother's greatness, memories of rivalry and some friendly abuse between them, and of course, resentment at his younger brother's freedom to "not be bound by tradition" - a freedom that Robert actually bought and paid for with his own responsibilities around the farm.

So yes, JL should have afforded Robert more freedom in their younger years, and should now at least acknowledge that had he helped out more, Robert could have had a break from the 18th century once in a while. Robert has legitimate grievances.

But here's where Robert loses my sympathy: he must cure this "poor, sick vine", spitting out the sentiment, when his younger brother came back to Earth and back home for the first time since well before Robert had a preteen son and was even married. And why was JL in the neighborhood? HE JUST SAVED EARTH FROM BORG ASSIMILATION.

Robert. That's not tough love - that's called being a pr-.

JL should have brought Beverly Crusher with him to shoot down Robert's ungrateful arrogance, with some pictures of what assimilation did to his brother - and would have done to his whole family by now were it not for Jean Luc.

Grapes? Fuck grapes, Robert!
Effing clodhopper.

I wonder how many people at the time would have known about Jean Luc's role in the Borg ship's destruction. It seems to me that would be the sort of detail found only in highly classified "stuff that kills Borg" files. Robert may only have had the most minimal of information -- that his brother was hurt and humiliated, as he said in the episode.

And with respect to the OP, I can't say I agree that Robert has legitimate grievances against Jean Luc. Perhaps against Maurice, but not Jean Luc. If their father forced Robert into some kind of caretaking role -- both of his younger brother and the family traditions -- then that's where Robert's anger should be directed. If Maurice wasn't so, and Robert chose to cast himself in those roles, then he has nobody else to blame but himself. In either case, being upset with Jean Luc is just misdirected anger.

 

[Paradise City]

I actually just took the "poor, sick vine" remark at face value. I didn't see a subtext. He's aloof from JLP, sure, but I didn't tether his tone to his exact words.

In any event, there is resentment there of course and he did stray over the fine line between the "tough love" of an older brother to being unjust. There's a number of very difficult flashpoints in that family, a deep respect for tradition was rebuffed by JL who -- remember -- was probably more of the willful and difficult (and possibly trollish) character that lost his heart in a barfight than the genteel figure that we see in this episode.

It's a good episode though. It's great to see them wrestle in the mud, JL then revealing the extent of his trauma and then both reconciling. Strong stuff.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Does anyone know why most of Jeremy Kemp's lines were overdubbed (by Ian Abercrombie) during the filming of "Family"?

 

[Trek Survivor]

Does anyone know why most of Jeremy Kemp's lines were overdubbed (by Ian Abercrombie) during the filming of "Family"?

My understanding is it wasn't "most", but only a few. The majority of Robert's dialogue is the Jeremy original.

I'm not sure, but the likely answer is that Kemp was unavailable for the ADR. As for the "why" in the first place, it's very common for ADR to take place if the dialogue hasn't come out so well in filming, or they want to change a line (or the emphasis of how it was spoken etc)

This episode is one of my all-time favourites. The relationship between the two Picard brothers is fantastic, capped off by that really heart-felt hug at the end. I know Kemp could be a little difficult on set (this according to the director and Stewart himself) but it all translated into a great performance.

 

[Marsden]

Saved the Earth, but what have you done for me lately? That was so last week.

And why do these clichéd uphold the tradition guys have to act like they are greatest people ever for doing it and then bitch about it like it's a curse?
Do you like the tradition, good. If you don't like it don't keep it, some traditions are pretty damn stupid and I don't think a person should be forced to keep them.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Robert's OK, the actor playing him does a respectable job, I'm fine with all of that. I just don't get why Picard has to be so similar to Kirk in regards to having an older brother and a nephew as his only kin. An older brother who, himself, ends up being killed, just like Kirk's brother does. It just would've been nice to further distance TNG from TOS and not mirror things so closely, like what STAR WARS does. Over and over, again. I mean ... why be so self-referential, all the time?

 

[somebuddyX]

I like Robert. I love that he realised that his brother wasn't dealing with his trauma and carrying on that everything was fine and dialled up his dickish behaviour so that he's turn himself into a punching bag and Picard could have something to fight. I'm sure there's a lot of truth to much of his statements but I wonder at what point it was all calculated so as to provoke Picard into taking a swing at him.

 

[Terok Nor]

For those who don't like Robert being a douchebag you can always watch this episode with a smug grin on your face knowing he burns to death a few years later.

 

[Shikarnov]

Robert's OK, the actor playing him does a respectable job, I'm fine with all of that. I just don't get why Picard has to be so similar to Kirk in regards to having an older brother and a nephew as his only kin. An older brother who, himself, ends up being killed, just like Kirk's brother does. It just would've been nice to further distance TNG from TOS and not mirror things so closely, like what STAR WARS does. Over and over, again. I mean ... why be so self-referential, all the time?

While I'm sure Ron Moore probably knew about Kirk's family, I think it was the farthest thing from his mind when writing Family.

And really, would it have made much difference to the story if Rene had been Picard's neice instead of his nephew? Would it have made much difference to Picard as a character?

Besides, having a brother, sister-in-law, and a nephew is a pretty superficial similarity. Robert and his family bear almost no resemblance to Sam and his; nor is the relationship between Jim and Sam anything like Jean Luc and Robert.

 

[somebuddyX]

Robert and his family bear

I read that too fast and suddenly had a much cooler image in my head.

 

[Triskelion]

I think having a male heir taking after his wayward brother added to the dramatic tension, and gave Robert more to resent.

I don't see why, dramatically, their deaths were necessary for the overstuffed plot stew of Generations; other than to end the Picard bloodline for some subtext; and giving Stewart more pathos, I guess?

 

[Shikarnov]

^ Piller and Braga hoped to make the Nexus -- and Soran's arguments about immortality -- a bit more appealing by having Picard lose something precious beforehand.

And it might have worked better if the audience had been brought along on that emotional journey somehow instead of learning via communique (and a textual one to boot!) about their deaths.

As an aside, I think Generations would have worked better without Kirk at all. The teaser could have set up the Family connection, which would give Picard's crisis some much needed context, thereby giving the overall plot stronger roots, and most everything else could have played out the same (except Picard maybe takes a phaser with him from the Nexus instead of a retiree).

 

[2takesfrakes]

While I'm sure Ron Moore probably knew about Kirk's family, I think it was the farthest thing from his mind when writing Family.

And really, would it have made much difference to the story if Rene had been Picard's neice instead of his nephew? Would it have made much difference to Picard as a character?

Besides, having a brother, sister-in-law, and a nephew is a pretty superficial similarity. Robert and his family bear almost no resemblance to Sam and his; nor is the relationship between Jim and Sam anything like Jean Luc and Robert.

Would it have made much of a difference? No. It would not. And however it was arrived at, it was still just a little too coincidental. I mean, if every starship captain we encountered was a bloke from Iowa, as insignificant as that would've been to the adventures of the show, I'm sure fans would bristle at it. I mean, even Scotty just has to have a nephew named Peter, same as Kirk did. Yes, it's being nitpicky over a detail that has no bearing on anything, I'm not disagreeing on that point, at all. Still ... there does seem to be an "homage" of some type, when randomising such details would've been most easily achieved.

 

[tomalak301]

I can understand Robert's jealousy. They are brothers. Jealousy is bound to happen, no matter how hard you work.

 

[Paradise City]

I never saw that link between Picard and Kirk. It's just that they are both single men in long running shows and you are going to eventually come across some kind of family there.

So when an episode/movie comes along and you need to emotionally traumatise these characters to serve a plot end, who do you go after? Either there's nephews or brothers -- or there's a hidden son there. Of course, it's not only nephews and brothers with Picard and Kirk, Picard got "his son" when Bok came back in the 7th season and Kirk got his actual son in the form of David.

They diversified from single men with Sisko and Janeway being featured in different situations. Particularly Sisko.

 

[TwoJakes]

has to be so similar to Kirk in regards to having an older brother and a nephew as his only kin

Minor point, Kirk had three nephews.

JeanLuc could be a arrogant prick at times and this might have been his demenor as a child and young man as well. Picard describes his younger self in NEM as a "damned fool." So Robert could have been going off that up until Picard proved to his brother that he had aquired some semblance of manors in his later years.

I never saw any signs that Robert resented JeanLuc, Robert possessed a beautiful home and had a loving famly, he lived a life of his own choosing.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I don't know every in an out of STAR TREK, so this business about the 3 nephews is kind of "news" to me. Is this from a novel? As to Robert resenting Jean-Luc, at all, the chilly reception he gave his brother after not seeing him for 2 decades at least suggested the possibility. And yes, Robert had a Life of his own ... a damned good life. But he also had a life before Marie, he was a kid, once ... How can a responsible, vine-growing, wine-bottling brother ever outshine Jean-Luc's popularity?