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Dukat - Genius or Egocentric Imbecile?

Sisko4Life

Commander
Red Shirt
I feel like the writers spent most of the series trying to make Dukat seem as Egocentric and stupid as possible. Yes, he had some serious ego issues, but I find myself still considering Dukat to be a great leader. Only thing is his leadership does tend to only coincide with his own purpose -_-.

But in all honesty, in the Occupation Arc on my first series watch through, I was actually thinking that Dukat was actually on the verge of the single greatest triumph of a single villain in Star Trek (defeat of the Federation). The way he handled Weyoun in contrast to Demar really highlighted his leadership abilities.. And had the writers not came up with that stupid ending in Sacrifice of Angels.... Even then, his descent in the madness at the loss of DS9 and his daughter was meant to "show his overconfidence." Lets be real, they could have picked a better way to do that, like the minefield not detonating or something.. not wipe out all 2800 reinforcements (yeah I get the whole Sisko prophets thing..). That was just such an outrageous way to highlight a tragic flaw
 
Well Dukat was certainly an egomaniac, who believed that had he been in command of the Union during the occupation of Bajor they never would have pulled out. His way was the right way and yes he was over confident at times. And no it wasn't a Dues ex machina ending in "Sacrifice of Angels" as we had already seen the wormhole aliens exercise control of the wormhole.

So lets examine a few facts

Just when he is expecting enough reinforcements to final squash the Federation they disapper. Just as the tide of Battle turns against the Dominion.

He learns his Daughter has not only betrayed him but the Union he loves so much

She is then killed by his closest aid/firend.

As people react differently to things it is possible that was enough for him to have a psychotic break.
 
I would classify Dukat as an evil genius during the first five seasons. His intentions were certainly not benign in "Emissary". He revealed trying to discredit one of the civilian leaders behind the withdraw from Bajor in "Cardassians." He destroyed a Klingon Bird-of-Prey on his stolen vessel over Sisko's objections in "Apocalypse Rising."

From "Sacrifice of Angels" onward, nearly everything that could have gone wrong for him went wrong. And regardless of his setbacks, he still thought himself the greatest sentient in the quadrant.
 
Neither. I wouldn't call him a genius, nor an imbecile, but he IS egocentric and does have a lot of charisma. He sees himself as someone who makes the right decisions, knows the right things to do and is stymied by his superiors or opponents who won't let him do the right thing. That's how he feels. He's always been this way. We see it in how he viewed the occupation of Bajor in particular, but definitely not exclusively.
 
Okay...this is a character I've spent a LONG time analyzing, given that I write a "good twin" AU version of him.

At least in my own writing, I actually think what happened to him regarding his growing fixation on his relationship with Ziyal and eventual psychotic break makes perfect sense. I did have to make a conjecture as to what the AU Dukat's personality would be like, but as I worked on it, a pretty clear picture came together.

Gul Dukat, as I see him, is a man who has violently buried the personality he should have had--so violently that he has become a sort of caricature on two feet. There is something about his true self that frightens him, something that would destroy him if he let it out, after all that he has built himself up into. At least personally--I am convinced that a "true" Dukat is a highly emotional, and highly sensitive individual. Gul Dukat, however, has made horrible decisions and almost cannibalized himself (so make no mistake: no matter what I imagine AU Dukat to be, that doesn't mean I cut Gul Dukat ANY slack whatsoever).

The difference comes from four things:

1) Above all, their choices. Even in a bad environment it is possible to choose to be good, regardless of what anyone claims, so I don't buy this "environment is king" bullcrap. So I refuse to absolve Gul Dukat from the full responsibility and full punishment earned by his choices. He ultimately is the one who chose to betray himself, to cut himself off from the ability to feel compassion from others, and to become so completely absorbed in his own ego.

2) The way their underlying mental illness was treated. In canon we do not have conclusive evidence of a chronic condition but I choose to interpret the psychotic break and other almost "manic" patterns in his behavior as evidence of something. I have in my own fic diagnosed it as a Cardassian form of bipolar disorder. I could see the Cardassians allowing a manic state to continue while only treating a depressive state, because they might think of the manic energy as something they ought to harness and use as a tool. A version of Dukat with ALL facets of his illness properly addressed, who has received holistic medical, behavioral, and spiritual treatment could demonstrate a markedly different behavior pattern.

3) The fact that Gul Dukat likely idealized people who were also brutal dictators. It is his fault that he selected these as his example, ultimately, but a plethora of such examples abounded. He felt conflict between the acceptance of brutality and revulsion by it (personally I see the incident after the three men were subjected to explosive decompression and it haunted him so badly as the last strong attempt of the part of him that truly felt compassion to reassert itself) and chose the wrong side.

4) Gul Dukat believes in nothing greater than himself (that is, until the Pah-Wraiths alter him). He does not believe in a deity, for starters. But he also does NOT in fact believe in the Cardassian state despite his protestations to the contrary. Neither deity nor society is respected by him. A version of Dukat able to truly care about others, and to place others first, would also be expected to demonstrate a far different behavior pattern and also be less likely to be blinded to evidence of things outside himself he needs to know about. Less likely, therefore, to make stupid decisions...and certainly, Gul Dukat made some stupid ones.


Now let's go to the relationship with Ziyal. What's going on here? Why did this relationship become his obsession and why did its loss break him?

Certainly there were other stressors at the time the psychotic break happened. But I think there were other, deeper things occurring there. These do depend on the conjectures I've made above, but I think are fairly reasonable guesses.

What was the relationship before the psychotic break? What did it represent to him, that he clung to it so strongly despite tradition and disgrace--things he'd never been able to endure before?

Unfortunately I think the first answer to that is that Gul Dukat saw her almost as a pet. She gave him unconditional, unquestioning love regardless of the monster into which he had made himself. Even his wife and his other children were not so unquestioning. This was his deep need, which he had never quite been able to suppress and which drove a lot of his egotistical and predatorial behavior. In other words...to Gul Dukat most of the relationship (that he would actually acknowledge) had to do with what she could give him.

(As to Ziyal's extreme naivete, I consider the canon Ziyal to be emotionally stunted by her bad upbringing and captivity, so she is not just gentle and innocent but truly childlike emotionally despite her creative and intellectual abilities. But that's a whole other thread, even though that leads to her idealizing and failure to question her father.)

But there is something else that in my own conjecture, Ziyal represents to him.

She is the final connection back to the "true self" that is nearly dead within him.

For this reason, if you saw my AU Dukat and Ziyal together, you would be struck by the great similarity between father and daughter.

On some instinctive level, I suspect that more than any of his other children, Ziyal had those personality patterns, and I think he recognized it. It's almost like some tiny part of him clung to her for salvation. Another chance to heal and to truly live. Unfortunately we know that part wasn't strong enough--was too destroyed by that point to ever take control back. But I still think that happened, on some level.

To see that final connection destroyed in front of him by his own aide "for the good of Cardassia" absolutely, completely snapped him. In that moment, the final vestige of the Dukat-who-could-have-been died and left nothing but the bitter and twisted remains. From there, I think that from a viewer's vantage point, he fell beyond redemption.

And it is no wonder that ultimately, just like Fra Alberigo in Dante's Ninth Circle of Hell (the Circle reserved for traitors), his soul was purged into hell and a demon seized his body while he still lived. From the standpoint of poetic justice, in an old literary sense, it works, even though it might not have been an expected choice in Star Trek.

Is that the most defensible choice from a writing standpoint without some kind of additional framework to surround it (mine, Treklit, or any other writer's framework)? Not necessarily, but I think it did work.

Apologies for the ramble, but that pretty much sums up what I think of Gul Dukat. He wasn't an idiot, but he became so twisted in upon himself, so corrupted from what he should have been, that it destroyed his thought processes.
 
I think he was always a Space Nazi who simply had an affable exterior, and viewers got the totally wrong idea about him because his truly horrific actions all happened off-screen.

If we'd been introduced to him while he was still Prefect of Bajor and saw for ourselves what it was like, opinion would be different.
 
I think he was always a Space Nazi who simply had an affable exterior, and viewers got the totally wrong idea about him because his truly horrific actions all happened off-screen.

If we'd been introduced to him while he was still Prefect of Bajor and saw for ourselves what it was like, opinion would be different.


that's apparently the view of the writers in seasons 5-7, but I don't think that can be reconciled with the Dukat of earlier seasons, a very complex character who by season 4 seemed on the way to redemption, or at least trying it out. Then we got a full reverse on the character, with the whole "he was always a racist megalomaniac," an odd approach for a series that dealt with shades of gray, turning a complex character into a villainous cartoon.

Garak, despite the various hints of his war criminal past, was allowed to become a complex and sympathetic character, but they didn't go that way with Dukat.
 
Nerys Ghemor, I enjoyed your thoughtful and interesting anaylsis. Having some experience with psychotic breaks, I think losing Ziyal was the tip of the iceberg. This is a man who spent years believing he was responsible for the Bajoran improvements. I point to the episode Indiscretion when he talks to Kira about the new Bajor being tempered with Cardassian steel. He feels he should be a hero on Bajor. Return to Grace explains how he feels among his people. He is the only fighter left among his race against the Klingons. He negotiated becoming a member of the Dominion in an attempt to make Cardassia strong again, the power in the quadrant. And to make himself the absolute ruler of Cardassia. He is strong again.

Moments from defeating the Federation, the Bajoran gods rip certain victory from his grasp. The Cardassians were moments away from becoming the rulers of the galaxy, the ultimate show of strength, and vindication for joining the Dominion. He overlooks that it's Dominion forces doing this. It is his people. It is him as a leader. His finest hour.

This is why he grows to resent and hate the Bajoran people and Benjamin Sisko. I think this was a mistake, he should've hated the gods. They are the ones who ripped victory from him. Instead, he will rule them through the Pah Wraiths. And therefore, the Bajoran people will bow before him as a god. He will earn their respect or their fear. Either way, he is, once again, strong and loved.

So, back to just before Ziyal's death, he in turmoil, looking for comfort from his daughter. He's hearing that she has turned her back on him and he forgives her. He says that he will stay by her side. Remember he's been here before and she was the one who became his family after his wife left, his children turned their backs, and he lost his position in the Cardassian Government. Never forget that she is Bajoran as well and he loves to be comforted by Bajoran women. It make him feel powerful.

Then, she is gone and he is alone. It's too much for him to process and he has lost everything. Loss--death, career, marriage, status--is huge in psychosis. It can break us. He stays with her because she embodies what he had. A family, a quadrant, personal strength--they were all his and now are dead. And that's the psychotic break. Everything he thinks, everything he is, is challenged. This is why he talks about Sisko "clarifying" things for him, seeing the truth. Because he has had to re-form his sense of self after this. Too much has been lost for him to cling to the truths that he had known that led to all his decisions. He is a man who craves strength and love. Love is why he chases Major Kira and comforts Ziyal. Power for his people, power provided by him, feeds him. He cannot accept that he did those horrible things to the Bajorans and so he justifies it away.

In the end, he is a meglomaniac. He is successful because is his charismatic and charming. But he never admits a mistake and he doesn't see himself as a bad guy. He can't face it when so much loss proves he's not the leader he thought he was. He can't face it when he has no family. He justifies himself. He even tries to emulate the powerful Benjamin Sisko who bested him. He tries to peer into his mind, to understand him. This is more like a personality disorder--narcissist or borderline, not bipolar.
 
I completely agree that he is narcissistic in the extreme (which is why I identified failure to recognize something greater than oneself as one of the big issues). That is a key difference in my own stories between Gul Dukat and AU Dukat. One thing I have read about narcissism describes a strong disturbance in one's sense of self. That is certainly something in my own theory of who Dukat is and who he should have been, that occurred...the absolute self-destruction of the personality he should have had.

(If you're interested in the Jungian personality model, which I use for literary convenience sometimes, to give me some basic hints about certain characters, I would say that Gul Dukat manifested a very unhealthy, dysfunctional opposite of what he was supposed to be--whereas a healthy person that basic archetype could easily be a good person.)

Still, I did not find narcissism sufficient to explain the delusions. I felt there had to be some sort of comorbidity going on. (What I read about borderline personality disorder makes it clear that it is quite possible to have such a disorder comorbid with a mood disorder--not to mention the features of one can overlap with the other.)

That is why I did make the choice for my own universe to introduce bipolar disorder given that a very strong manic state can indeed result in delusions in certain types of the disorder. (I would also say there is the chance the Cardassian brain might function a bit differently than ours, though I doubt the difference would be extreme, given that we're talking about 2 DNA-using species with certain template material from the Progenitors.)

I can see wildly irrational thinking, paranoia, and general inability to make a sensible decision as the result of a stressor like losing Ziyal, for sure--but flat-out delusions and madness? I think there had to be some sort of underlying disorder there that exacerbated the problem.

Again, that's just me. But I definitely did some checking before I came up with that idea of what my AU Dukat was going to be like (and on his meds, you would not know the difference between him and any other nice, normal person).
 
Wow, very good analysis. Definately gives me a better outlook on the confusion I get with Dukat. On one hand, I cant really feel comfortable saying he is a purely evil cold blooded killer. He just didn't fit that, and I think it was no coincidence that he was shown on screen with Weyoun discussing such matters. In Sacrifice of Angels, Weyoun suggests eradicating Earth's population, and Dukat says "A true victory is to make your enemy realize they were wrong to oppose you in the first place!" I actually just watched Waltz, and his whole needing to get respect from Sisko really just tells all. This is one sick, lonely man that desperately wants respect.. to be honored and worshipped. And Ziyal was the only one who actually gave him that unconditional love and respect. However, his obsession with getting people to respect him is definitely the result of a deeper issue.

Surprisingly, I don't think the writers intended to make Dukat into a mental headcase (least from what I've read) - that he was just supposed to be a man who can do the right thing but just still chooses the wrong way to go.

I guess I really really have trouble calling him truely evil like the show makes him out to be in the 6th and 7th seasons, simply because I know so many people in my own life that have similar mental issues. Dukat spent the entire series whining and brooding over earning respect from anything sentient (which is also why he loved Damar so much now that I think about it). After selling Cardassia to the Dominion he said "they are erecting a statue in my honor" --- then interjects after Siskos response by being defensive saying "what I did was to make Cardassia strong again!" My take on it.

EDIT: With all that being said, Dukat was still a confident and competent military leader. I have seen a similar display of behavior / thoughts in one of my close friends. They are very confident, but for some reason don't believe that others can actually see that they are good, which leads them to resentment and hate for all around them... Dukat needs antidepressants...
 
Its interesting to me to see in the grand scheme of things how he contrasted with a lot of other Cardassians to the point where his behavior almost makes him seem like the odd man out by comparison. Dukat talked a lot about about restoring Cardassia and its obvious superiority over Bajor, but was always far more concerned with his own glory. That loyalty and dedication to the state shared by Garak, Tain, and Damar is entirely lip service by Dukat.

Notice also that various other Cardassians treat the matter of Bajor's occupation as a matter of fact. You don't see a lot of them making grand speeches telling how merciful and/or justified they were during that period. A lot of Dukat's behaviors and way of thinking seem almost intensely out of sync with the more subtle and orderly ways of Cardassia.

Even the nature of family seems to work different for Dukat. Even putting aside the complex nature of Tain and Garak's relationship, I do think there was genuine care for each other on both sides. Damar himself deeply mourns the loss of his family with the Dominion's attack. Yet with Dukat... I do think in his own way he loved Ziyal, but so much of his mannerisms and dialogue seems to suggest that family is more of a trophy to him, with Ziyal herself almost as a way of demonstrating what a good and compassionate father he is. With him its so hard to tell how much he values others as actual people.

Everything after Waltz (that is if you choose to see it as somewhat natural character growth and not derailment) plays this out too. The real interesting comparison in that period isn't necessarily Kira/Dukat or Sisko/Dukat, its Damar/Dukat, because the latter shows how much Damar exemplified the morals of Cardassia better than his mentor.

Damar remains concerned about his people's future, about the strength of the Union, about how to best serve his nation. He rebels against the Dominion, agrees to unlikely help by Garak and Kira, and sacrifices his life in the name of Cardiassia. The author of The Never Ending Sacrifice would be proud. Meanwhile Dukat's running around messing with Bajoran gods because he has to get revenge on them and Sisko. Whatever pretense he had about helping his own kind is completely gone at this point.

Its with all this in mind that even beyond their own personal history, perhaps one of the biggest reasons Garak despised Dukat was that he was such a poor excuse for a dutiful Cardassian, who never had the same devotion to their people like he and Tain did.
 
Yeah, like Garak and Tain are great examples of dedication to Cardassia. They, and the entire Obsidian Order, are like cannibals, except they don't (as far as we know) literally use their teeth.
 
How actually beneficial Garak and Tain were is definitely a matter of interpretation, but with the two of them (much more with the former admittedly) I had the feeling that they genuinely cared for Cadassia as a whole and wanted it to prosper. As the seasons went by I became less and less convinced of that with Dukat.
 
Once you've seen a Cardassian with a heart like Tekeny Ghemor or Aamin Marritza, it just makes BS stand out all the more as what it is: BS. In fact, nowhere is the distinction more clear than with Aamin Marritza. You can see just how hollow people like Gul Darhe'el really are, watching Marritza act the part. And you can see how it kills Marritza inside to put on that kind of "brutal Cardassian" face.
 
For some of the obvious inconsistencies aside, I felt that Dukat had one of the better drawn characters in the antagonist role. He remains my favorite character, though I, too, wish he had been explored more fully. In one aspect, I believe the writers captured him well: torn between the society in which he was raised, his own ambition, and his desire to carve out a unique place for himself, he made decisions--often reprehensible--and he accepted the consequences of them.

I do think, however, his descent into madness diminished his overall character and began a caricature of him that was...unappealing.

Anyway, sorry to ramble. I'm new to the board as a poster, though I've been lurking for a long time.
 
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Like I said, the problem was that his truly worst acts happened off-screen. If we'd been introduced to him while he was the Prefect and saw what his orders and actions did to the Bajorans, it'd be a lot easier to not sympathize with him.
 
Like I said, the problem was that his truly worst acts happened off-screen. If we'd been introduced to him while he was the Prefect and saw what his orders and actions did to the Bajorans, it'd be a lot easier to not sympathize with him.


that depends on what the eventual direction of the character was going to be. You're probably right if they'd wanted to keep him a villain, but while they were showing him regretting those actions, and seeking redemption for what he'd done, it might not have affected the way the viewer saw him.
 
Meanwhile Dukat's running around messing with Bajoran gods because he has to get revenge on them and Sisko. Whatever pretense he had about helping his own kind is completely gone at this point.

Indeed, and more than that. Not only is the pretence of serving Cardassia's needs gone, but Cardassia itself doesn't even seem to register as a meaningful concept. In the finale, when Winn discusses Sisko, she says at one point, "assuming he survives the invasion of Cardassia", to which Dukat assures her "he'll survive". The whole "invasion of Cardassia" reference gets no response at all, not even an acknowledgement that it's no longer important. He isn't sacrificing or discarding anything, or showing any transition in his concerns, he simply isn't responding to it. Winn could have said "assuming he survives his trip to the local co-op store" and it would get the exact same response; complete disinterest. Which I suppose shows that Dukat's concern for Cardassia wasn't truly there to begin with, or at least hadn't been for some time.

To me, Dukat's motive has always been selfish, and while something external can be worn over that selfishness like a cloak - even for a long while if everything goes to plan - the cloak itself doesn't really matter. I see Dukat as a willing slave to himself; he needs and craves his own self-enforcing sense of importance and nobility (as far as his own child-like sense of the noble can carry him). And he surrounds himself with people to reinforce his fantasy - Ziyal the blindly loving "pet" daughter, Damar the lieutenant who is loyal but non-threatening (too unimaginative to take Dukat's place, yet ultimately also more than the "typical" Cardassian military thug - intelligent enough to appreciate Dukat), comfort women who will respond to his "generosity" if only because they know they're trapped and it could be far worse. I think Cardassia itself was just the same, a piece in his fantasy, where all that really mattered was him. If daughters and comfort women and lieutenants fulfilled his need to be the noble, benevolent master (again, to the extent that he understands "noble", which is through the prism of a child-like selfishness), then Cardassia fulfilled his need to be the servant. In his own mind, he's a good son to Cardassia, just as he's a good patriarch to his extended Cardassian/Bajoran community-family. Ultimately, though, he's every bit as disloyal a son as he is an abusive patriarch - both roles are ultimately to fuel his own need to experience a sense of his great worth. The tragedy of Dukat, as I see it, is that he never, ever grasps an opportunity to actually become a better person - and he had many. He always chooses to pretend to himself that's he's great rather than trying to become great. It's as if I wanted to be an athlete but couldn't bring myself to actually train, so I sit back and daydream about it and lie to myself. And Dukat's completely trapped in his own lie. His mind is yoked to his runaway ego.

I’m thinking of how he and Weyoun were always played as "equals"; they're quite similar. But where Weyoun had the Founders, Dukat is his own Founder.

So, I think "concern" for Cardassia was, on the surface, a big part of his thinking while it was useful to Dukat's self-serving (self-consuming :() motives, but it was completely discarded afterwards - because he never had any true loyalty to it. Even "the invasion of Cardassia" is just speech, nothing more.

I wonder what went wrong (assuming here that my reading is accepted) to make Dukat so completely obsessive with reinforcing an internalized sense of worth. I sometimes think of him as a rather traumatized little boy in a man's body - he never grew out of the young child's self-centred worldview (too frightened? Sheltering from a harsh world and dedicating himself to inward self-reinforcement to the extent that he shuts out all the stimuli that offer opportunities for growth and so, spiritually speaking, never leaves infanthood? Everything made to conform to his internalized need to reinforce that worth - every value of his culture, good and bad, warped by it, taken on in a completely selfish way that makes him a twisted, delusional idea of a "good Cardassian" who doesn't actually respect or understand the values he's adapting?). And the traumatized selfish little boy in that man's body grows up like so many traumatized selfish little boys to lead war fleets and take power, to make the universe acknowledge his worth - him, at the apex and the centre, his selfish ego stoked by his power and simultaneously his fear sated by the control. For Dukat in Season Six, everything is fully safe and controlled with him at the centre, until the universe crashes down when he loses Terok Nor again, along with Ziyal and (in a way) Damar (the loyal lieutenant can't shoot the pet daughter and I can't lose my war and my empire, that just can't happen!) And Dukat ends up obsessed with taking down Sisko, who is the eldritch abomination that just won't fit and is making the Dukat-verse wrong. Sisko's in Dukat's office, he's got Kira's respect, the Bajorans' respect, a strong, noble military leader, a loving father, victorious in battle - the little boy has encountered, of all things, a rival. And this universe isn't big enough for both of them. And I think ultimately Dukat knows too that he'll lose - because he's just a selfish little boy and Sisko...Sisko is a man. Dukat can only play at those qualities I listed - Sisko truly embodies them. And of course Dukat goes down into the flames, his selfish, immature ego destroying himself in impotent rage as Sisko ascends.

Well, forgive me there, but that's how I see it...
 
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