Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another universe!

[DizzyMan]

They never really mentioned it much on the show, but both Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman actually died in season 1, and the versions throughout most of the series are actually alternate versions from a different universe. (I can't remember which episode this happened in.)

I wonder if I'm the only person who remembers this/finds it significant? I always kinda look at Harry as something of an 'imposter'.

And, when Voyager finally got back to Earth… if wonder if they told Naomi's father (stationed on DS9) that his daughter died. … But: "Here's an identical replacement for you!"

I can see it now… "Mr Wildman, do you want the good news first or the bad news?"

 

[KiraDax]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Since it was a matter of very recent quantum duplication and Voyager's crew consisted of rational, mostly scientific and open-minded explorers, I'm pretty sure no one considered them imposters, and I'm sure that was stressed to Naomi when she was old enough to know and understand. Obviously she wasn't too scarred by it, assuming they told her by the time she entered her teens.

At least, I hope alleviating any paranoia about being 'different' was Janeway's intent when she spewed the oh so eloquent 'Weird is part of the job.' to Harry and not sheer insensitivity.

And frankly, I'm sure Naomi's father was too befuddled by the idea that he had a daughter to worry much about how he got her.

 

[LightningStorm]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

It was Deadlock from Season 2.

And technically speaking they're not from a different universe they are from "this" universe they are however duplicates of themselves. They didn't exist prior to that moment but for all intents and purposes did live the exact same life as the originals.

 

[Kegek]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Janeway: Mr. and Mrs. Kim, I'm afraid to inform you that you son is dead. In an alternate universe.
(pause)
And then he came back and we revived him.
(pause)
And then he died again.
(pause)
But he was replaced by a quantum duplicate. Who dated a woman who came back from the dead.
(pause)
We have reason to believe that Harry Kim also died in a future, alternate universe, retroactively saving us.
(pause)
Incidentally, Harry Kim was duplicated again by a mimetic life form. We have reason to believe that this duplicate died.
(pause)
Would you like to meet your son's quantum duplicate now?

 

[Michael]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Kegek said:
Janeway: Mr. and Mrs. Kim, I'm afraid to inform you that you son is dead. In an alternate universe.
(pause)
And then he came back and we revived him.
(pause)
And then he died again.
(pause)
But he was replaced by a quantum duplicate. Who dated a woman who came back from the dead.
(pause)
We have reason to believe that Harry Kim also died in a future, alternate universe, retroactively saving us.
(pause)
Incidentally, Harry Kim was duplicated again by a mimetic life form. We have reason to believe that this duplicate died.
(pause)
Would you like to meet your son's quantum duplicate now?

Hilarious!
I think the same goes for Chief O'Brien who also was replaced by a future duplicate (in "Visionary"). And what about his evil android clone (or whatever) from "Whispers"?

Hew, Harry Kim is the Chief O'Brien of Voyager!

 

[Kegek]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Belar said:
And what about his evil android clone

Replicant.

Kim is kind-of VOY's O'Brien. On DS9, the informal motto was "O'Brien Must Suffer."

On VOY, it might've been "Kim Must Die."

 

[Christopher]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

LightningStorm said:
And technically speaking they're not from a different universe they are from "this" universe they are however duplicates of themselves. They didn't exist prior to that moment but for all intents and purposes did live the exact same life as the originals.

Well, approximately. Since both duplicates were created simultaneously, both have just as valid a claim to being the original. It's like when an amoeba divides -- which one is the original amoeba? Both, and neither. Harry and Naomi are just as much their "original" selves as everyone else on the ship -- they just followed a slightly different path through life for a few hours.

But you're absolutely right that they were not from an alternate universe or timeline. That's a surprisingly common misconception, given that the episode itself clearly stated otherwise. Hell, even the ST Chronology made that mistake.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Amoeba-like cell division would make it that everyone on both ships have equal rights to their perspective identities. However I liken the word "duplication" and what happened to them as photocopying a page from a novel. There's a master copy, an original, and then there's any number of how many perfect copies of the text. The only way that both ships could be as equally original as the other is if like in the case of Will and Tom Riker, that they were destroyed (after a fashion) and recreated at the same instance from the same basic information, because although Roger Corby was able to build a Robot with the same complete memories and emotional resonance of Jim kirk, it wasn't Jim Kirk, that Voyager had to have been destroyed during the duplication process which then made two equally historied versions of Voyager in the wake of the spatial scission.

Big argument. Can go on for weeks and it has done before and will do again.

Dizzyman, you need to include Non Sequitor into this conversation where harry Kim leaves reality and returns to earth but elects to re-strand himself in the Delta Quadrant to get the crew back 14 episodes before the events in deadlock. Also that it was possibly Harry and Naomi who were the master copies, and not everyone else.

There's also talk about the molecular/quantum signatures if we want to cover all the angles by factualizing that this is not what happened in TNG Parallels.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

No, they're not.

 

[exodus]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Christopher said:

LightningStorm said:
And technically speaking they're not from a different universe they are from "this" universe they are however duplicates of themselves. They didn't exist prior to that moment but for all intents and purposes did live the exact same life as the originals.

Well, approximately. Since both duplicates were created simultaneously, both have just as valid a claim to being the original. It's like when an amoeba divides -- which one is the original amoeba? Both, and neither. Harry and Naomi are just as much their "original" selves as everyone else on the ship -- they just followed a slightly different path through life for a few hours.

But you're absolutely right that they were not from an alternate universe or timeline. That's a surprisingly common misconception, given that the episode itself clearly stated otherwise. Hell, even the ST Chronology made that mistake.

I totally agree with all that you said.

 

[DizzyMan]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Kegek said:
Janeway: Mr. and Mrs. Kim, I'm afraid to inform you that you son is dead. In an alternate universe.
(pause)
And then he came back and we revived him.
(pause)
And then he died again.
(pause)
But he was replaced by a quantum duplicate. Who dated a woman who came back from the dead.
(pause)
We have reason to believe that Harry Kim also died in a future, alternate universe, retroactively saving us.
(pause)
Incidentally, Harry Kim was duplicated again by a mimetic life form. We have reason to believe that this duplicate died.
(pause)
Would you like to meet your son's quantum duplicate now?

Ha ha ha! I found that much more entertaining than ny real Voyager episode.

So… try harder in future

 

[Bill Morris]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

I find what happened to Harry and Naomi not much different from having gone through a transporter. It wasn't an alternative universe in the sense that it was in TOS, DS9 and ENT, where one's counterparts led very different lives and had very different personalities and ways of thinking, not a mirror universe at all but one just a little out of sync, having no more effect on Harry and Naomi than, say, a little jet lag, other than giving them a second chance after having died.

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

While we didn't get any followup to this in the series, we did in the String Theory series of novels.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

And they had to go to their own funerals.

Can you imagine Sam nursing Naomi while Janeway shot the original Naomi out into space inside a torpedo casing after a few kind words at the funeral? Or you know what it's like at a funeral or a wedding and "that" baby starts screaming totally ruining the mood?

I'm reminded of When Sean Penn couldn't put down his hatred of Ursela to make out with Phoebe in Friends because they shared a face.

heheheheheeheh! Since things didn't work out between Lyndsy Ballard and Duplicate Harry, why didn't he do the honorable thing and let his corpse have a try at his sloppy seconds? I mean if it was just floating in space somewhere in a torpedo casing and it wasn't one of those demolecularization funerals on the transporter? Hell, harry could have still been in medical Storage, in case he needs some spare parts after an accident some day.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

LCARS 24 said:
It wasn't an alternative universe in the sense that it was in TOS, DS9 and ENT, where one's counterparts led very different lives and had very different personalities and ways of thinking, not a mirror universe at all but one just a little out of sync, having no more effect on Harry and Naomi than, say, a little jet lag, other than giving them a second chance after having died.

Simpler than that -- it wasn't a "universe" of any kind. The ship was physically duplicated within our universe. The two ships were just out of phase with each other so that they occupied the same point in space without detecting each other, analogous to the phased cloaking device technology that made Geordi and Ro invisible/intangible in "The Next Phase" or a starship invisible/intangible in "The Pegasus."

So the duplicates of Janeway or Kim or Naomi are more analogous to the duplicate Kirks in "The Enemy Within" -- physical doubles, not alternate selves. They were just doubles that were out of phase with each other and occupying the same place.

nx1701g said:
While we didn't get any followup to this in the series, we did in the String Theory series of novels.

Did we? I don't recall that. I do recall that the novel Echoes followed up on this, although it retconned it by claiming that it actually had been a timeline split and that the explanation given in the episode had been wrong.

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

^ The events of this episode (Deadlock) play a role in the String Theory trilogy, where a Nacene infiltrates Voyager by altering the crew's memories and posing as Janeway's sister. Due to them being slightly out-of-sync with the rest of the crew, Harry and Naomi are immune to her tampering, and can thus perceive the Nacene for what she really is. (Memory-Alpha)

 

[3D Master]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Guy Gardener said:
Amoeba-like cell division would make it that everyone on both ships have equal rights to their perspective identities.

And that's exactly what happened.

However I liken the word "duplication" and what happened to them as photocopying a page from a novel. There's a master copy, an original, and then there's any number of how many perfect copies of the text.

Alright... so who's the original? Tell me, please, are the Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman on Voyager the duplicates, or are they the original? Is Voyager and their crew the original, or are Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman the only originals on board?

And please tell me how you know which is which.

nx1701g said:
^ The events of this episode (Deadlock) play a role in the String Theory trilogy, where a Nacene infiltrates Voyager by altering the crew's memories and posing as Janeway's sister. Due to them being slightly out-of-sync with the rest of the crew, Harry and Naomi are immune to her tampering, and can thus perceive the Nacene for what she really is. (Memory-Alpha)

Thank, god I didn't bother reading that bullshit. First, they were never "out of sync" to begin with, since they were never from another place as this place.

Also, even if they were from another place/universe, then after all the years in this universe, the atoms and molecules in their bodies would have been replaced with atoms and molecules of this universe, and this "out of sync" would have been removed a long time ago.

 

[Gojirob]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Dawn was Janeway's sister, too? Damn UPN all to hell!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

3D Master said:

Guy Gardener said:
Amoeba-like cell division would make it that everyone on both ships have equal rights to their perspective identities.

And that's exactly what happened.

Find me a quote from the episode to support that and I will believe you.

3D Master said:

However I liken the word "duplication" and what happened to them as photocopying a page from a novel. There's a master copy, an original, and then there's any number of how many perfect copies of the text.

Alright... so who's the original? Tell me, please, are the Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman on Voyager the duplicates, or are they the original? Is Voyager and their crew the original, or are Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman the only originals on board?

And please tell me how you know which is which.

Hell no, which is what makes it so interesting. I loved it how the focus of the story switched between Janeways so that both of them were jonesing to sacrifice themself for the other to be the biggest martyr and better Starfleet Officer than the other... In a totally selfless and honorable way of course.

Following the cell division theory, then neither is the original and both ships were just as deluded as the Quicksilver entities who thought they were the Voyager crew and Voyager, so really, if you're right, then Deadlock was the last episode of Voyager and not Living Witness, or if you're witless Endgame.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Guy Gardener said:
Following the cell division theory, then neither is the original

No, both are the original/real ones.