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Did Yoda Want Luke to Kill Vader?

Mr Light

Admiral
Admiral
I was having a friendly argument about this with someone.

I say: Yoda did NOT want Luke to kill Vader. The entire point of ROTJ is that Luke (or Leia) was the only thing that could reawaken Anakin's humanity to get him to turn on the Emperor. As the Prophecy said, only Anakin could defeat the Sithari. He just ended up taking 20 years to do it. Therefore Luke killing Vader would accomplish absolutely nothing. Luke never stood a chance against the Emperor. He could only be defeated by his most trusted ally.
This also explains why Yoda did not warn Luke about Force Lighting. Why Luke threw away his lightsaber.

His view was that Yoda fully intended Luke to kill Vader AND the Emperor all on his own. To which I say is utterly ridiculous. Luke was less than a Padawan. He had a couple weeks/months of training. He could barely defeat an old crippled cyborg who threw the fight because it was his son. He never stood a snowball's chance in hell against the Sithari who easily took down the entire Jedi Council single-handedly.
 
Maybe Yoda expected Luke to be able to defeat Vader, but never anticipated that Palpatine would be on the Death Star, rather than back home on coruscant.
 
It seems Obi-Wan and Yoda were only training Luke to deal with Vader, without really peparing him for a confrontation with the Emperor. Wasn't until ROTJ that Yoda told Luke to not underestimate the Emperor.

I think Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to defeat Vader, as in, kill him. Obi-wan seems to scoff at the idea that Vader can be saved.

One thing I have always wondered, why did Obi-Wan wait three years to tell Luke about Yoda? Seems like they would have wanted to start Luke's training ASAP.
 
His view was that Yoda fully intended Luke to kill Vader AND the Emperor all on his own. To which I say is utterly ridiculous. Luke was less than a Padawan. He had a couple weeks/months of training.

...and yet before he started training, the Emperor feared Luke could destroy them. He was not thinking of the idea of Vader turning on him--the force told him Luke had the potential to destroy the Sith. Sidious never spoke of or feared any padawan in that way (including Obi-Wan after he killed Maul), and utterly disrespected the most powerful members of the Jedi Council.

Luke had the ability, but refused to use it. That made him more of a Jedi than most--especially the good number of PT Jedi who seemed less knowledgeable / philisophical and more about twirling lightsabers around.
 
He never stood a snowball's chance in hell against the Sithari who easily took down the entire Jedi Council single-handedly.

Whatchu talkin 'bout, Willis?

He didn't take down the entire Jedi Council singlehandedly. He took down all of three people singlehandedly.

Also, Bane fits the qualifications for the Sith'ari more than Palpatine does ( despite the fact that Palpatine believed himself to be the Sith'ari ).
 
Whatchu talkin 'bout, Willis?

He didn't take down the entire Jedi Council singlehandedly. He took down all of three people singlehandedly.

..but he disrespected the combined abilities of the Jedi Council...and feared Luke's potential to destroy the Sith. That ESB statement renders any OP notion of Luke being unfit for the task as being false.
 
I don't know if Yoda had intended for Luke to kill Anakin. He never really hinted one way or the other. Yoda had only referred to Luke facing Anakin. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, wanted Luke to kill his father.


Luke had the ability, but refused to use it. That made him more of a Jedi than most--especially the good number of PT Jedi who seemed less knowledgeable / philisophical and more about twirling lightsabers around.


I don't think Luke was really prepared to take down both Anakin and Palpatine in ROTJ. Not by a long shot. He was really lucky with Anakin, who didn't seem to be in any mind frame to duel with his son. And those "twirling lightsabers" could have easily chopped Luke to pieces back in ROTJ.
 
I've always understood that the point wasn't to kill Vader & Palpatine but for Luke to master himself and become a true Jedi. Killing Vader and Palpatine was a probably an unavoidable side effect of defeating the Sith for good, but it wasn't the objective in and of itself.
Yoda trains Jedi, not assassins.
 
He was pretty on board with getting rid of Vader as far as ROTS, although Obi-Wan was of course, naturally reluctant at first. However it's pretty clear by their fight in SW:ANH that he's pretty much given up on him, although he still remains somewhat regretful of what happened in ESB ("I don't want to lose you the way I lost Vader") and ROTJ.

Plus, like Mace, he never really trusted him that well, except for a few odd moments in AOTC by giving him the mission.
 
^It's one thing to decide of one's own volition to confront and kill if necessary, it's quite another to train another with the express purpose of using them to kill someone. There's also a difference between being willing to kill and intending to kill. It's not just semantics, there's a fundamental philosophical difference between the two concepts.
 
I don't think Luke was really prepared to take down both Anakin and Palpatine in ROTJ. Not by a long shot.

Yoda told Luke he did not need more training. That would strongly point to Luke being ready.

He was really lucky with Anakin, who didn't seem to be in any mind frame to duel with his son.

He was not lucky. The screenplay supports what the film clearly lays out--Luke was no longer the weaker participant as in the Cloud City duel:

But the young Jedi has grown in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him.

...and this happens long before Luke gave in to anger. He was Vader's superior at that point.

We always need to remember TESB, when the Emperor predicts Luke could destroy them. This has nothing to do with Vader having a change of heart (in fact, he never detected any uncertainty in Vader until well into ROTJ's plot). The force is telling him Luke has the capability to destroy the Sith, and repeatedly acknowledged his growing power. Palpatine never said that about any other Jedi, including the deep ranks of the PT Jedi--the same group of Jedi George Lucas said were the fully trained / height of their abilities Jedi.

Later, Vader repeats the same thing--not as some manipulative tool, but as a statement of fact.



And those "twirling lightsabers" could have easily chopped Luke to pieces back in ROTJ.[/QUOTE]
 
Plus, like Mace, he never really trusted him that well, except for a few odd moments in AOTC by giving him the mission.

Yoda is the only one who has never really seemed to trust Anakin. Obi-Wan had expressed doubts about Anakin and the Chosen One prophecy in AOTC, while Mace questioned his doubts. I got the feeling that Mace had no problems with Anakin as the Chosen One during their conversation. But in ROTS, their opinions seemed to be reversed.


We always need to remember TESB, when the Emperor predicts Luke could destroy them. This has nothing to do with Vader having a change of heart (in fact, he never detected any uncertainty in Vader until well into ROTJ's plot). The force is telling him Luke has the capability to destroy the Sith, and repeatedly acknowledged his growing power. Palpatine never said that about any other Jedi, including the deep ranks of the PT Jedi--the same group of Jedi George Lucas said were the fully trained / height of their abilities Jedi.

A ROTJ Luke capable of taking out both Anakin and Palpatine? After a few weeks with Yoda and one year of Jedi training . . . via a handbook? I don't see it, despite Yoda's words. Perhaps if Luke had been a little older and more experienced with the Force. Unless in the end, he was nothing more than a Gary Stu, just as Rey is a Mary Sue.
 
Perhaps it wasn't his training that was the source of what the Emperor and Vader sensed I terms of Luke being able to destroy them. What if it was something else? The Emperor clearly mentioned that the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi. There was something there that threatened both Sith Lords greatly.
 
Yoda told Luke he did not need more training. That would strongly point to Luke being ready.

Not quite: -

Yoda
No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.
Luke
Then I am a Jedi.
Yoda
No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

The implication here seems to be that he has the knowledge and skills to become a Jedi, but it needs to be tested. The old Jedi trials weren't just mindless ritual, they existed for a reason and Luke needed to truly know himself and learn to become truly calm and passive. Vader in the embodiment of all of Luke's darker qualities, figuratively and literally. That's what the cave vision was trying to teach him. He must face the darkness within.

He was not lucky. The screenplay supports what the film clearly lays out--Luke was no longer the weaker participant as in the Cloud City duel:

...and this happens long before Luke gave in to anger. He was Vader's superior at that point.

Again, yes and no. The moment to moment advantage of the fight shifts in both directions over it's course. That's why it's a legitimate fight and not just Vader toying with him as a means to an end as he was on Bespin.
It's complicated though since it all depends how you choose to characterise Vader's state of mind and how it varies throughout these scenes. It's subjective.
At certain points, I think he's genuinely out to kill Luke, while others he's holding back which may or may not have allowed Luke to gain the upper hand at least once. And in at least one instance I genuinely feel Vader is resigned to being replaced. Remember, he's seen this scene play out before.

Really, you'd have to break down the sequence almost blow-by-blow to really get into what's going on under the surface.

We always need to remember TESB, when the Emperor predicts Luke could destroy them. This has nothing to do with Vader having a change of heart (in fact, he never detected any uncertainty in Vader until well into ROTJ's plot). The force is telling him Luke has the capability to destroy the Sith, and repeatedly acknowledged his growing power. Palpatine never said that about any other Jedi, including the deep ranks of the PT Jedi--the same group of Jedi George Lucas said were the fully trained / height of their abilities Jedi.

Later, Vader repeats the same thing--not as some manipulative tool, but as a statement of fact.

Also remember that Palpatine's weakness was his overconfidence. He foresaw that in one fell swoop he would replace his old apprentice with a new, younger one, finally destroy the rebellion and permanently solidify his grip on the galaxy with his new battle station. Obviously, none of that happened.

It's all academic though since we really don't *know* what version of the future the force actually showed him and how much was his own interpretation. All we know is what he said he saw (which was vague) and he's not exactly known for his honesty and openness.

As for that scene in tESB, there's a lot going on under the surface in that one too. Note how the Emperor seems half stoned. I interpret that as he's been almost completely subsumed in the force. Deep in dark side meditation and ritual. Whatever he saw (Luke destroying him) perturbed him enough to get him onto Vader.
Remember again, we only have *his* word that Luke could destroy they both. Let's say for the sake of argument that what he really saw was Luke turning Vader against him; would he tell Vader this? Of course not. Then on top of all that there's a subtle interplay of word between them, with much being said between the lines.

This is just my personal interpretation, but I think it's a valid one: -
Emperor
There is a great disturbance in the Force.
<You've been busy, working behind my back.>
Vader
I have felt it.
<Busted.>
Emperor
We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
<You have been keeping secrets from me.>
Vader
How is that possible?
<As have you. You told me I killed her.>
Emperor
Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.
<Don't bullshit a bullshitter. You're playing with fire.>
Vader
He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
<You're afraid?>
Emperor
The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
<I know what you're up to.>
Vader
If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
<I can still salvage this.>
Emperor
Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
<Two can play at this game.>
Vader
He will join us or die, master.
<I'm going to be free of you, one way or the other.>

Perhaps it wasn't his training that was the source of what the Emperor and Vader sensed I terms of Luke being able to destroy them. What if it was something else? The Emperor clearly mentioned that the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi. There was something there that threatened both Sith Lords greatly.

"Always in motion is the future."

It seems fairly obvious that the threat is exactly what transpired. Luke reached that part of Vader that was still Anakin and thus destroyed both the master and apprentice at once.
Whether he knew the exact shape of that threat is open to interpretation. Something fans always seem to overlook when talking about Palpatine's sprawling, weblike plots and schemes: they almost never go off exactly according to plan. He's constantly improvising and adjusting to adapt. He's very good at it so for the post part, that worked for him. So perhaps his overconfidence led him to believe he could manipulate this wrinkle to his advantage too. He was wrong.
 
The implication here seems to be that he has the knowledge and skills to become a Jedi, but it needs to be tested. The old Jedi trials weren't just mindless ritual, they existed for a reason and Luke needed to truly know himself and learn to become truly calm and passive. Vader in the embodiment of all of Luke's darker qualities, figuratively and literally. That's what the cave vision was trying to teach him. He must face the darkness within.

Luke proved he could overcome the dark temptations (unlike Vader) by letting himself fall to what he believed was guaranteed death in TESB. Wounded, horrified and disillusioned all at once, Luke resisted a direct offer to join the dark side as well as one would expect of any PT-era Jedi. In fact, Anakin and Dooku had long term, traditional training, yet both fell in a far stronger emotional state than Luke in TESB. Luke's faced the trial as a student--and passed, which is probably the reason Yoda did not need to teach him anything else in ROTJ.

Again, yes and no. The moment to moment advantage of the fight shifts in both directions over it's course. That's why it's a legitimate fight and not just Vader toying with him as a means to an end as he was on Bespin.

Shifts? From the start, Luke controls the fight, and by the time he tells Vader he will not fight, he's defending himself--not because he's in any danger, but he's not going to stand there and let himself be cut down. Emotionally, Luke's constant resistance / analysis of the situation

Vader never had an advantage.

As for that scene in tESB, there's a lot going on under the surface in that one too. Note how the Emperor seems half stoned. I interpret that as he's been almost completely subsumed in the force. Deep in dark side meditation and ritual. Whatever he saw (Luke destroying him) perturbed him enough to get him onto Vader.
Remember again, we only have *his* word that Luke could destroy they both. Let's say for the sake of argument that what he really saw was Luke turning Vader against him; would he tell Vader this? Of course not. Then on top of all that there's a subtle interplay of word between them, with much being said between the lines.

Remember, Vader also has the ability to see premonitions through the force, and he not only accepted Palpatine's view, but tried to sell that premonition to Luke; he did not try to modify the basic belief that Luke could destroy the Sith. As for Palpatine, knowing Vader would be able to receive his own premonitions regarding Luke, it would be pointless to omit anything in his prediction about Luke's potential to destroy them (and i'm talking about their relationship before as established in 1980--before a prequels "rule of two").


Whether he knew the exact shape of that threat is open to interpretation. Something fans always seem to overlook when talking about Palpatine's sprawling, weblike plots and schemes: they almost never go off exactly according to plan.

I'm not so sure about that. His prequels plans pretty much checked all of his "to do" boxes with the exception of Maul's death. Once he became chancellor, the senate, Jedi and everyone else moved exactly where he wanted.
 
Luke proved he could overcome the dark temptations (unlike Vader) by letting himself fall to what he believed was guaranteed death in TESB.


And what? Luke was free from such temptations for the rest of his life? He was going to spend the rest of his life as the perfect Jedi? Now that is the ultimate fantasy . . . even for a fictional story.
 
Remember, Vader also has the ability to see premonitions through the force, and he not only accepted Palpatine's view, but tried to sell that premonition to Luke; he did not try to modify the basic belief that Luke could destroy the Sith. As for Palpatine, knowing Vader would be able to receive his own premonitions regarding Luke, it would be pointless to omit anything in his prediction about Luke's potential to destroy them (and i'm talking about their relationship before as established in 1980--before a prequels "rule of two").

Is he conceding or simply not contradicting? As I said there's always more going on under the surface with these two.

Also, yes we know Vader is in theory capable of foresight, but of what we've seen it's pretty vague and typically lacking in context. The impression I get from his talk with Luke is that Vader has more trust in the Emperor's foresight than his own, probably from long experience.

I'm not so sure about that. His prequels plans pretty much checked all of his "to do" boxes with the exception of Maul's death. Once he became chancellor, the senate, Jedi and everyone else moved exactly where he wanted.

Sure, he got what he wanted for the most part but it's not like he never had setbacks. Admittedly this is more evident in TCW where we see a lot more of his machinations thwarted, if only temporarily. As I said, he's very good at improvising and adapting to changing circumstance and at least in the earlier years planned for failure so he'd still have some way to benefit like any good Xanatos Gambit.

Indeed, if you pay attention to TPM the whole movie is about how Palpatine's plan goes almost completely off the rails and how he takes advantage of the changed situation to actually benefit himself even more in the end.

I think it's reasonable to postulate that once the Jedi were wiped out and his Empire was on the rise, he became accustomed to success and everything unfolding according to his design that overconfidence crept and was ultimately his undoing.
 
Something fans always seem to overlook when talking about Palpatine's sprawling, weblike plots and schemes: they almost never go off exactly according to plan. He's constantly improvising and adjusting to adapt.

Except in AOTC, apparently. Who are these "fans", anyway? Wouldn't that be the same group that argues everything in AOTC was planned by Palpatine?
 
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