When did the Federation first know of the Cardassians and what is known of their first contact experience?
Did the Federation / Earth have first contact with the Cardassians in this timeframe?
- Thread starter Snowdrop82
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Well, there appears to have been at least one Cardassian living on Vulcan in exile during the ENT timeframe. There's no evidence of direct contact with Cardassia on a culture-to-culture basis though. The earliest references to regular contact between the Cardassian Union and the Federation comes from the early 24th Century; we know that Picard was reading about Bajoran history when he was in school as a child, and we know Bajor was occupied by the Cardassians for more than 50 years before withdrawing in 2369. So we can probably infer that first contact between the Federation and Cardassian Union happened some time in the late 23rd or early 24th Centuries.
Well, probably the A or the B. If first contact happened between 2280 and 2293, then it would have been the Enterprise-A. We know the Enterprise-B was launched in 2293, and we don't know when it was retired or lost. We know the Enterprise-C was destroyed in 2344. I would hazard a guess that the B was lost or retired some time by the 2320s, but that's just me guessing based on the feeling that the C didn't seem that old. Picard was in school in the 2310s, so I would assume regular contact would have had to have been established for the Federation to have put Bajoran history in their public schoolbooks, which means they'd probably have met the Cardassians. So I'm guessing the Enterprise-B.
While there's no canonical answer to when the first official political/diplomatic contact occurred between the Federation and the Cardassians, the Wildstorm Comics graphic novel Enter the Wolves, by Trek novelists Howard Weinstein & A.C. Crispin, is set about 40 years before DS9, so the late 2320s, and refers to the Cardassians as a "new species" petitioning for trade relations with the UFP, but one that's been known long enough for Sarek's new wife Perrin to have studied their language and culture. (The comic depicts the origin of the rift between Spock and Sarek over Cardassian relations, as alluded to in "Unification.")
Not necessarily. Bajor is an ancient civilization, after all; it's possible that, say, the Vulcans encountered them centuries ago. Alternatively, the TOS novel Allegiance in Exile by David R. George depicts Kirk's Enterprise making first contact with the Bajorans in 2269.
The Terok Nor novel trilogy depicts pre-Occupation Bajor as being aware of the Federation and other civilizations, but tending toward isolationism, so they don't interact much with them.
Not necessarily. Bajor is an ancient civilization, after all; it's possible that, say, the Vulcans encountered them centuries ago. Alternatively, the TOS novel Allegiance in Exile by David R. George depicts Kirk's Enterprise making first contact with the Bajorans in 2269.
The Terok Nor novel trilogy depicts pre-Occupation Bajor as being aware of the Federation and other civilizations, but tending toward isolationism, so they don't interact much with them.
@Christopher @Sci
I imagine that the Cardassians of Enterprise-TOS era were at equal footing in terms of Federation technology but their influence in the Galaxy was smaller. Perhaps relations between the two were neutral, focusing on trade, and only when the Federation expanded as it has, did there come a war between the two in the 24th century.
I imagine that the Cardassians of Enterprise-TOS era were at equal footing in terms of Federation technology but their influence in the Galaxy was smaller. Perhaps relations between the two were neutral, focusing on trade, and only when the Federation expanded as it has, did there come a war between the two in the 24th century.
Maybe they were known, but not that aggressive back then. Maybe they seen the federation as expanding into what they think is theres, and more militaristic leadership was "elected" and went and started to take things, like Bajor. and after decades of small skirmishes with the federation, they done a peace treaty.
I believe the Organians mentioned Cardassians were at that planet in "OBSERVER EFFECT". Given that the planet probably wasn't that far out, it's entirely possible Earth itself had first contact with them before the Federation was actually founded.
Uhura ordered a Cardassian drink in Star Trek 2009 so they were known about then, at least in that timeline. You could always just fudge it and say their product was known without knowing them, but then that Cardassian got to Vulcan in the 22nd century. There's a fan theory that the Cardassia was in the Delphic Expanse, because both are said to be around fifty light years from Earth, and even though the Expanse went up in flames the Federation stayed away from that area for a while which is why we don't see them. I think the idea of them lurking in the background of TOS and the TOS films out of sight though is kinda cool.
Except that was a later reference that contradicted the earlier assertions about it being extremely distant compared to how far NX-01 had gotten. They'd made it 90 light years out in "Two Days and Two Nights" in late season 1, and got even farther in season 2. So to say that traveling 50 light years is a big deal is ridiculous in context.
Also, "The Expanse" said the Delphic Expanse was over 2,000 ly across. If it was only 50 ly away, just think of how it would've dominated half the sky. The "50 light years" line was an obvious mistake.
Also, when was it said that Cardassia was only 50 ly from Earth? It was supposed to be a distant world on the fringes of Federation space in the 24th century.
Maybe it was 50 light years from Earth in the opposite direction from Risa.
"The Xindi" opens with the them saying the human homeworld is 50 light years away. And that's to the Xindi planet, not just the Delphic expanse, so the Expanse might be even closer. Of course it dominated half the sky but it's not our universe anyway so who cares.
I might have got it wrong on Cardassia to Earth being 50 light years but it says that in the DS9 Technical Manual and they mention fifty light years to a Vulcan station in the baseball episode, which I might have confused with.
But with enterprise, what direction did they go? Was the expanse in another direction? Say, season 1,2 they went on a general north west course (realitive to galactic center/Earth) and came back to Earth and went 50 Ly South West to the Expanse.
Then in S4 they went North East closer to Romulan space. Not to mention, the expanse could have been 50 ly UP or DOWN the galactic disc is what, 400 Ly Tall at earth, maybe up to 1000 ly closer in to the center? 2d map is not good for showing what is there.
So, from what I found Bajor is 60 ly away from Earth, and is 5ly away from Cardasia, so lets say Cardassia is 65 Ly away ball park.
Then in S4 they went North East closer to Romulan space. Not to mention, the expanse could have been 50 ly UP or DOWN the galactic disc is what, 400 Ly Tall at earth, maybe up to 1000 ly closer in to the center? 2d map is not good for showing what is there.
So, from what I found Bajor is 60 ly away from Earth, and is 5ly away from Cardasia, so lets say Cardassia is 65 Ly away ball park.
And I've already explained how obviously ridiculous that is. A 2000 light-year wide volume only 50 ly away from us? Come on, just visualize that. Forty times wider than its distance from us? And yet we've somehow never noticed it's there?
Which is obviously, obviously wrong. Whoever wrote that line made a mistake, a blatant and stupid mistake. It's as obviously wrong as the admiral in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" saying that the Eugenics Wars were 200 years before, or Morrow in ST III saying the Enterprise was 20 years old. This is a work of fiction, a created construct, and it contains mistakes. Heck, I realized years ago that it's best just to ignore specific numbers in Star Trek, because they're never consistent.
It's not about our universe, it's about the Trek universe. The line in "The Xindi" putting it that absurdly close contradicts the immediately previous episode, "The Expanse," which posited that it was a great distance away. Come on, the whole point of making it that far away was to explain why we hadn't seen the Xindi or any of the other species in the Expanse in the TOS or TNG eras. It was meant to be so distant that it would still be beyond Federation territory even 200 years later. The entire third season portrays it as extremely distant, except for that single line in one episode. It is bizarre to ignore the preponderance of evidence and believe the one isolated thing that contradicts everything else.
If you aren't willing to just ignore the line, then there's an easy way to rationalize it. It was a Xindi-Reptilian who claimed Earth was 50 light years away. A light year is the distance light travels in one year. Different planets have different year lengths. Maybe the Xindi planet's year was several times longer than an Earth year, and the Xindi definition of a "light year" is thus a much longer distance than the Earth definition. Or maybe the Reptilian just misspoke. You don't have to assume every word spoken by every character ever is absolute truth, because that's deeply unrealistic. People make mistakes all the time, so why should fictional characters be any different?
Yeah but so what if it's ridiculous. Honestly I kind of like that it's ridiculous. I get a kick out of there being a big expanse taking up most of the sky in Earth's past.
I think you also have to ignore the 2000 light-year across figure, or at least interpret it some other way.
As for Cardassians, the Organians mentioned them in "Observer Effect", but it's not clear if they made contact with Humans. Somebody said they were mentioned again, but I don't remember when.
I was always unsure what their status was in the 23rd century. Were they an even smaller power, were they still unknown to humans, or were they the basically the same as 24th... just never spoken of onscreen. iirc the map in SNW has Cardassia but no territory around it, while the Talarians control some space around it. Maybe Cardassians conquered some Talarian planets?
I just figured the Xindi joined the UFP before TOS. Though I guess you would think such a (seemingly) large species would have more presence in Starfleet (working under the assumption TOS-VOY is the altered timeline).
As for Cardassians, the Organians mentioned them in "Observer Effect", but it's not clear if they made contact with Humans. Somebody said they were mentioned again, but I don't remember when.
I was always unsure what their status was in the 23rd century. Were they an even smaller power, were they still unknown to humans, or were they the basically the same as 24th... just never spoken of onscreen. iirc the map in SNW has Cardassia but no territory around it, while the Talarians control some space around it. Maybe Cardassians conquered some Talarian planets?
I just figured the Xindi joined the UFP before TOS. Though I guess you would think such a (seemingly) large species would have more presence in Starfleet (working under the assumption TOS-VOY is the altered timeline).
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There’s supposedly a Cardassian living on Vulcan in the 22nd century, though specifically when is an unknown.
There was a Cardassian body on the automated station in “Dead Stop”, though no one seemed to know what a Cardassian was or looked like.
And the Organians mentioned the Cardassians in “Observer Theory”.
Even if the Federation possessed limited awareness of the Cardassians, knowing a single Cardassian or trying a Cardassian sunrise is far different from knowing Cardassians and their culture as a whole.
There was a Cardassian body on the automated station in “Dead Stop”, though no one seemed to know what a Cardassian was or looked like.
And the Organians mentioned the Cardassians in “Observer Theory”.
Even if the Federation possessed limited awareness of the Cardassians, knowing a single Cardassian or trying a Cardassian sunrise is far different from knowing Cardassians and their culture as a whole.
