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Destiny Trilogy (Spoilers)

Mr Silver

Commodore
Newbie
Was it really necessary to get rid of the Borg on a permanent level? With the tendancy for Trek writers to share continunity, it seems as if the Borg will be gone from the Trek universe for quite a while. Does this not rule out a popular and abundant species for future works?

I have said before that I really enjoyed the books, but I was disappointed with the Caeliar storyline and their influence on what was going on. I felt the Borg should have been central and their new drive to exterminate rather than assimilate was a great dramatic element on which a series of books could have been built on.

If David Mack is around, would you be able to explain your reasoning for eliminating the Borg? Thanks in advance.
 
Well, I'm only half-way through book 2 (don't worry, I was aware this was the Borg's final hurrah already) and can I say that YES IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!!! The major criticism I have of the TNG relaunch is the silly dependence on the bogey-man Borg as a continuing plotline.

Honestly, didn't Voyager cheapen them enough!?! All bar one ("Death In Winter") has been about the Borg pretty much, and I'm sick of it. So I say kudos to all involved who are (hopefully...) finally going to let the Borg die off as a plot crutch.

Having said all that, loving David Mack's work on "Destiny"!
 
I'm not one to ever say that a certain story direction is unacceptable. I think that as long as it's written intelligently and interestingly and with respect for the preceding material, then it's all valid.

But I do generally agree that getting rid of the Borg is a good idea. It's true that Voyager kind of watered them down too much through over-use. And you can only defeat the undefeatable enemy so many times before it becomes a joke.

I see the heavy use of the Borg in the TNG-R leading up to Destiny as a deliberate ramp-up of tension to the big conclusion. I don't think the massive Borg Apocalypse of Destiny would have had all the power it did if it had just appeared out of nowhere. Having a bit of build-up through the previous books really helped to make it feel like The Big One.

And the thing is, the Borg aren't gone, as a story idea. Sure, they're gone as a race in the galaxy, but their effects are long felt. The entire current series of Voyager novels are exploring the after-effects of their disappearance, and all of the Typhon Pact business going on in the other series wouldn't be happening if not for the Borg. So it's not like they're completely forgotten about.
 
I've a mixed view about this one. My criticism is the circumstances surrounding the Borg's defeat, it seemed a little too one mighty bound after the buildup throughout the books. As to removing the Borg entirely making Trek without the Borg is like having Doctor Who without the Daleks or Babylon 5 without the shadows etc. On the reverse side of this, if you have some great nemesis I think they should be used sparingly otherwise they just get boring and the sense of dread fealt by their presense is removed. What the post-Destiny books show is that you can still have effective enemies, who although not as powerful, are too close to home to allow complacency.
 
I'm with lvsxy808. The Borg, in and of themselves, are rather boring. In their pure form, they're not so much antagonists as an impersonal force of nature, and there are only so many stories you can tell about fighting a force of nature. Most of the really interesting Borg stories have not actually been stories about the Borg, but stories about their victims or survivors, about the aftermath of their actions on a personal or civilizational level -- Picard dealing with his post-assimilation trauma, Hugh being set free and discovering individuality and its problems, Seven of Nine's journey from drone to human, Arturis dealing with the loss of his species and the desire for vengeance, etc.

If the Borg were kept around, all you could really do with them is have them invade and get pushed back, invade and get pushed back, lather, rinse, repeat, yawn. The more they get hobbled so they can be defeated, the less impressive a threat they become. Destiny let us see them as they were meant to be, a truly galactic-level threat far beyond the Federation's ability to survive. It was the only way to really cut them loose and let them live up to the hype. But once you raised them to that level, there was no credible way to keep them around as a recurring threat; either they went away for good or the Federation did. So we get one epic story that really lets the Borg be the Borg, no limits, no holds barred... and then when they're gone, there are still countless stories left to tell about the aftermath of the Borg, about the consequences faced by their survivors, which is what the truly interesting Borg stories have always been about. So we get, if you'll pardon the expression, the best of both worlds.
 
I'm with lvsxy808. The Borg, in and of themselves, are rather boring. In their pure form, they're not so much antagonists as an impersonal force of nature, and there are only so many stories you can tell about fighting a force of nature. Most of the really interesting Borg stories have not actually been stories about the Borg, but stories about their victims or survivors, about the aftermath of their actions on a personal or civilizational level -- Picard dealing with his post-assimilation trauma, Hugh being set free and discovering individuality and its problems, Seven of Nine's journey from drone to human, Arturis dealing with the loss of his species and the desire for vengeance, etc.

If the Borg were kept around, all you could really do with them is have them invade and get pushed back, invade and get pushed back, lather, rinse, repeat, yawn. The more they get hobbled so they can be defeated, the less impressive a threat they become. Destiny let us see them as they were meant to be, a truly galactic-level threat far beyond the Federation's ability to survive. It was the only way to really cut them loose and let them live up to the hype. But once you raised them to that level, there was no credible way to keep them around as a recurring threat; either they went away for good or the Federation did. So we get one epic story that really lets the Borg be the Borg, no limits, no holds barred... and then when they're gone, there are still countless stories left to tell about the aftermath of the Borg, about the consequences faced by their survivors, which is what the truly interesting Borg stories have always been about. So we get, if you'll pardon the expression, the best of both worlds.
This sums up my feelings about the Borg and Destiny pretty well. And I also wanted to point out that just because the Borg are gone in the present doesn't mean we can't get stories featuring them when they were still around. Trek books jump all around in the timeline, so it's not like we're only getting books set after Destiny. In fact, we've already gotten a story written after, but set before Destiny, Revenant in Seven Deadly Sins.
 
Ok, without any disrespect to David Mack as an author...

I dislike, more than anything, the fact that the Borg's roots are pretty much Human. And what gets to me in science fiction, especially in Trek is the fact human arrogance precludes that we should be responsible for every major event or piece of mythology in the galaxy, in some way or another. The Caeliar were a terrible race based on an overly utopian way of life and there paranoia and cold logic about captivity had almost '"1984" vibes about it.

I dislike how the Caeliar did a Deus Ex Machina in the end of the story and essentially "wiped the Borg out of existence". What about those Borg who were assimilated against their will and who haven't been "raised" by the Borg like Seven Of Nine? Surely its not up to the Caeliar to decide the fate of individuals?

So you could say that I resent the Caeliar and the fact they were essentially a plot device used to eliminate one of the most important and intriguing races in Trek.

Heres one more thing arguing against the extermination of the Borg. Why did the Borg bother going back in time to stop First Contact? We could argue that by assimilating the Human's in the past would make sure the Borg existed anyway, but if the Colombia crew weren't around, then how would the Borg collective have been formed? Theres a mindfuck that I'd like to see Christopher try to explain!
 
There is some evidence in books after Destiny that the drones had a choice and some chose to stay behind like Seven.

David Mack said that Destiny had a weakness in that the Caeliar were a "Deus in Machina" plot, there from the beginning but very powerful. However given the Big Bad Borg he had little other choice.
 
Ok, without any disrespect to David Mack as an author...

I dislike, more than anything, the fact that the Borg's roots are pretty much Human. And what gets to me in science fiction, especially in Trek is the fact human arrogance precludes that we should be responsible for every major event or piece of mythology in the galaxy, in some way or another. The Caeliar were a terrible race based on an overly utopian way of life and there paranoia and cold logic about captivity had almost '"1984" vibes about it.

I dislike how the Caeliar did a Deus Ex Machina in the end of the story and essentially "wiped the Borg out of existence". What about those Borg who were assimilated against their will and who haven't been "raised" by the Borg like Seven Of Nine? Surely its not up to the Caeliar to decide the fate of individuals?

So you could say that I resent the Caeliar and the fact they were essentially a plot device used to eliminate one of the most important and intriguing races in Trek.

Heres one more thing arguing against the extermination of the Borg. Why did the Borg bother going back in time to stop First Contact? We could argue that by assimilating the Human's in the past would make sure the Borg existed anyway, but if the Colombia crew weren't around, then how would the Borg collective have been formed? Theres a mindfuck that I'd like to see Christopher try to explain!


The Borg were, as far as I know, not even aware of their Caeliar/human origins. The Caeliar responsible was little more then a instinctuel being, driven by hunger and a need to survive. Memories were all but gone I think. So whiping out humanity was something they didn't see any harm in then, since they were not aware anymore of their human origins.

And as for the Borg being intriguing, they stopped being that somewhere during season 4 of Voyager, which is sad really.
 
I dislike, more than anything, the fact that the Borg's roots are pretty much Human. And what gets to me in science fiction, especially in Trek is the fact human arrogance precludes that we should be responsible for every major event or piece of mythology in the galaxy, in some way or another.
I do agree with you there. I think it's just a bit too much to lay on humanity's doorstep for them to be responsible for the greatest threat the galaxy has ever known.

But then, I don't think it was the Columbia crew's responsibility or fault, neither was it the Caeliar survivors'. The human bodies were little more than raw material, and the Caeliar essence was little more than basic instinct, no intelligence. So really it's kind of more like a cosmic mistake. I don't think either of them could really help what happened - it was all just one big accident that had the worst possible outcome.

And in the end, humans and Caeliar both had a hand in defeating the threat, just like they did in creating it. It was Caeliar power that absorbed the Borg, but it was human spirit that persuaded them to do it.

So it brings me back to the beginning. I'm not especially fond of the idea on the surface, but as long as it's handled well and intelligently - which it was - then I'm okay with it.
 
Was it really necessary to get rid of the Borg on a permanent level?

Of course it's not "necessary." Nothing is "necessary." But it was a good idea.

I felt the Borg should have been central and their new drive to exterminate rather than assimilate was a great dramatic element on which a series of books could have been built on.

That would just be a rehash of "The Best of Both Worlds," Star Trek: First Contact, and Before Dishonor. We've seen that already. There's nothing new or interesting there -- and doing it yet again would just make the Borg all the more ridiculous and un-threatening unless you have the Borg either finally, permanently win or have the Borg finally, permanently defeated.

It's like Steven Moffat said recently about the Daleks: They're the Doctor's most reliable bad guys, but that also means they're his most reliable defeatable bad guys! The Borg should not be reliably defeatable.

I've a mixed view about this one. My criticism is the circumstances surrounding the Borg's defeat, it seemed a little too one mighty bound after the buildup throughout the books. As to removing the Borg entirely making Trek without the Borg is like having Doctor Who without the Daleks

See above re: the Daleks.

or Babylon 5 without the shadows etc.

The problem with that analogy is that the Shadows lost. They were defeated and they left. The Shadow War ended. They didn't keep coming back.

I dislike, more than anything, the fact that the Borg's roots are pretty much Human.

Not really. The first victims of the Borg happened to be Human, that's all. The real roots of the Borg are Caeliar. And while it may be improbable in-universe that the Borg's first victims would be Human, let's remember that a novel's obligation is to link all themes together to create thematic unity. Humanity being present at the Collective's beginning and end works on that level.

The Caeliar were a terrible race based on an overly utopian way of life and there paranoia and cold logic about captivity had almost '"1984" vibes about it.

You're contradicting yourself. They were either overly utopian or paranoid and impersonal and imperious -- you can't be both.

Meanwhile, I happen to think that that strange mixture of great social progress, telepathic democracy, egalitarianism, reverence for life, and self-sacrifice, combined with their arrogance, their xenophobia, their social stagnation, their resistance to change, and their imperial tendencies, made for a fascinating and very realistic culture. No culture, after all, is perfect, and all struggle with their good and bad tendencies.

I dislike how the Caeliar did a Deus Ex Machina in the end of the story and essentially "wiped the Borg out of existence".

I liked it. It's not a deus ex machina per se, because they did not appear out of nowhere and resolve the conflict with no advance warning or thematic connection to the larger conflicts of the work. It was, in point of fact, eminently appropriate that the Caeliar resolve the conflict -- because they only did so after adopting Federation ideals of pluralism and diversity and social evolution. Federation values save the Caeliar from their own culture's darkest impulses, and, in return, the Caeliar save the Federation from its greatest threat -- and in the process, inject the pluralism into their society that they so desperately needed to survive and to overcome their dark side. It's as perfect an ending as can be had -- and the only plausible ending, either, given how overwhelmingly powerful the Borg inherently are.

What about those Borg who were assimilated against their will and who haven't been "raised" by the Borg like Seven Of Nine? Surely its not up to the Caeliar to decide the fate of individuals?

No. The entire point of that scene was that those who left with the Caeliar did so by their own free will.

So you could say that I resent the Caeliar and the fact they were essentially a plot device used to eliminate one of the most important and intriguing races in Trek.

Except they're not a plot device. They're a vividly-drawn, multifaceted culture whose ultimate fate reflects the greatness of Federation values when they adopt them, and embodies the concept of mutual redemption and salvation.

Heres one more thing arguing against the extermination of the Borg. Why did the Borg bother going back in time to stop First Contact?

I believe this is addressed in Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Cloak. As for myself, I always hypothesized that that was, in essence, an attempt on the Borg's part to gauge Federation inventiveness and adaptability.

We could argue that by assimilating the Human's in the past would make sure the Borg existed anyway, but if the Colombia crew weren't around, then how would the Borg collective have been formed?

The Borg did not know that the first drones were Human and that Sedin's creation of the Collective depended upon the Columbia crewmembers; they had no memory of their own origins. So they did not intentionally act against their own interests.

Meanwhile, presumably, in a post-Borg-alteration, pre-Picard-restored timeline, the Borg Collective would simply have arisen on 21st Century CE Earth in the Alpha Quadrant instead of 46th Century BCE Arehaz in the Delta Quadrant.

I'm with lvsxy808. The Borg, in and of themselves, are rather boring. In their pure form, they're not so much antagonists as an impersonal force of nature, and there are only so many stories you can tell about fighting a force of nature. Most of the really interesting Borg stories have not actually been stories about the Borg, but stories about their victims or survivors, about the aftermath of their actions on a personal or civilizational level -- Picard dealing with his post-assimilation trauma, Hugh being set free and discovering individuality and its problems, Seven of Nine's journey from drone to human, Arturis dealing with the loss of his species and the desire for vengeance, etc.

If the Borg were kept around, all you could really do with them is have them invade and get pushed back, invade and get pushed back, lather, rinse, repeat, yawn. The more they get hobbled so they can be defeated, the less impressive a threat they become. Destiny let us see them as they were meant to be, a truly galactic-level threat far beyond the Federation's ability to survive. It was the only way to really cut them loose and let them live up to the hype. But once you raised them to that level, there was no credible way to keep them around as a recurring threat; either they went away for good or the Federation did. So we get one epic story that really lets the Borg be the Borg, no limits, no holds barred... and then when they're gone, there are still countless stories left to tell about the aftermath of the Borg, about the consequences faced by their survivors, which is what the truly interesting Borg stories have always been about. So we get, if you'll pardon the expression, the best of both worlds.

This. This. A thousand times, this.
 
You're contradicting yourself. They were either overly utopian or paranoid and impersonal and imperious -- you can't be both.

Meanwhile, I happen to think that that strange mixture of great social progress, telepathic democracy, egalitarianism, reverence for life, and self-sacrifice, combined with their arrogance, their xenophobia, their social stagnation, their resistance to change, and their imperial tendencies, made for a fascinating and very realistic culture. No culture, after all, is perfect, and all struggle with their good and bad tendencies.

Who says they can't be both? Their paranoid nature is part of them trying to maintain an overly "utopian society".

I do respect your opinion and I can see what you are saying about how their culture works and I'd like to add that although some of these elements worked for me, overall it just left me feeling a bit disappointed that they Borg came from such a species (although Destiny doesn't happen in my personal continunity).
 
You're contradicting yourself. They were either overly utopian or paranoid and impersonal and imperious -- you can't be both.

Meanwhile, I happen to think that that strange mixture of great social progress, telepathic democracy, egalitarianism, reverence for life, and self-sacrifice, combined with their arrogance, their xenophobia, their social stagnation, their resistance to change, and their imperial tendencies, made for a fascinating and very realistic culture. No culture, after all, is perfect, and all struggle with their good and bad tendencies.

Who says they can't be both? Their paranoid nature is part of them trying to maintain an overly "utopian society".

It's certainly a part of their attempt to maintain their idea of what society ought to be like. But, if I was understanding you correctly, you seemed to be claiming that they were, in your opinion, utopian -- that the narrative itself was depicting the Caeliar as being morally superior to the Federation. Yet that's clearly not the case if the narrative is also depicting them as being paranoid and xenophobic.

Maybe it would be more accurate to say that you found that the Caeliar's attempts to create a "perfect" moral society made it impossible for you to find them a compelling and interesting alien society?

I do respect your opinion and I can see what you are saying about how their culture works and I'd like to add that although some of these elements worked for me, overall it just left me feeling a bit disappointed that they Borg came from such a species (although Destiny doesn't happen in my personal continunity).

Fair enough, then. If the whole thing just doesn't work for you, well, that's subjective. But I do think that there are valid creative and thematic motivations that can be reasonably inferred from those choices, and that it's possible to see how someone else might be satisfied by them even if you were not. I appreciate you making the effort to see where I'm coming from in my evaluation of the Destiny trilogy.
 
I dislike, more than anything, the fact that the Borg's roots are pretty much Human. And what gets to me in science fiction, especially in Trek is the fact human arrogance precludes that we should be responsible for every major event or piece of mythology in the galaxy, in some way or another.

As Sci pointed out, that's an overstatement; humans were involved in the origins of the Borg, but more as innocent bystanders who got swept up in the events that led to their creation.

Yes, maybe it strains plausibility for humans to be involved in every major event in galactic affairs, but that's the nature of fiction. Trek is already full of such contrivances, like a human named Picard being the Klingon Arbiter of Succession, or a human named Sisko being the Emissary of the Bajoran Prophets, or a human named Archer carrying the katra of Surak and helping trigger a Vulcan reformation, or for that matter a human named Janeway becoming one of the greatest antagonists the Borg had ever known. Human audiences, on the whole, want to read about human characters, characters they can relate to. True, Trek fans have responded to stories told from the perspective of other species they're interested in, like Vulcans or Klingons or Romulans; but a story about the origins of the Borg would've had to be about some pre-Borg civilization we'd never seen before and with which the audience had no basis for identification. The only dramatically feasible way to tell the Borg's origin story is to bring a human or other familiar perspective into it somehow.

And at least having the first Borg drones be English-speaking humans explains the otherwise ludicrous contrivance of a race of alien cyborgs having a name derived from the English word "cyborg."


I dislike how the Caeliar did a Deus Ex Machina in the end of the story and essentially "wiped the Borg out of existence".

Again, Sci's right -- you can't really call something a deus ex machina if it's brought about by characters who have been integral parts of the story all along as a natural outgrowth of the story's character arcs. A deus ex machina is an arbitrary solution that appears out of nowhere to solve the problem. If the trilogy had been solely about Starfleet and its allies fighting the Borg, and then suddenly the Caeliar showed up for the very first time in the climactic chapter of book 3, explained their backstory as the Borg's progenitors in a three-page speech, and then swept the Borg away and disappeared, that would've been a deus ex machina. But that's not what happened. The Caeliar were central characters throughout the trilogy and the resolution was a direct outgrowth of three books' worth of setup.


What about those Borg who were assimilated against their will and who haven't been "raised" by the Borg like Seven Of Nine? Surely its not up to the Caeliar to decide the fate of individuals?

We learn in Unworthy that the Caeliar did give Seven a choice and she chose not to go with them. It follows that others were given a choice as well.
 
The Borg had an insatiable desire for perfection and conformity. The Caeliar show where that came from but they managed to control those impulses to an extent through their isolationism and xenophobia. The Caeliar turned inward; the Borg turned outward. But it's clear where the impulses came from.
 
Umm, maybe because she'd already miscarried one baby and was about to miscarry another, and couldn't be near her husband during this difficult time, and the only medical doctor around was a massive dinosaur who bit her in the stomach?

If you think that's not a reason for a woman to be emotional, God help your wife.
 
It wasn't necessary... but it was certainly enjoyable to read about. After 2,345,345 Borg books in a row, it was nice to finally see them demolished.
 
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