Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger?

[Turd Ferguson]

"SkyNet knew almost nothing about Connor's mother. Her full name, where she lived... the Terminator was just being systematic." -Kyle Reese

I rewatched The Terminator last night and wondered something. Apparently, SkyNet was in the dark when it came to Sarah Connor, which led to the T-800 using advanced reconnaisance (aka The White Pages) to track down his intended targets. We know he asked the first Sarah Connor if she was, in fact, Sarah Connor before terminating her with extreme prejudice. We don't know if he did the same with Sarah Louise Connor. However, he does not do this when he confronts Matt and Ginger.

For all intents and purposes, the White Pages and the apartment's board listings list the apartment as being occupied by Sarah Connor. So, the Terminator breaks in, beats the shit out of Matt and kills Ginger, Sarah's roommate. Now, supposing Sarah didn't call Ginger from the TechNoir bumming a ride, wouldn't the T-800 consider it's mission accomplished at that point? He didn't do a sweep of the first Sarah's house to confirm her identity, so it's safe to say he wouldn't ransack Sarah's apartment to do the same (he only does so when she identifies herself on the answering machine).

Did Sarah single-handedly sentence 3 billion human lives to their fiery demises by being a mooch? What would the T-800 have done between that point and Judgment Day? Get a job? Work to ensure SkyNet gets built? Would Kyle and Sarah still have hooked up and conceived John? Or would Sarah have sensed Kyle was a creep and denied him a date? If so, wouldn't the T-800 have blinked out of existence since SkyNet, John Connor and Judgment Day are all crucial to each other's existences?

 

[Melakon]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

The timeline is a paradox. The T-800 comes back to kill Sarah due to orders from SkyNet. The T-800 is destroyed, and its advanced technology leads to the development of SkyNet.

Also, what was the T-800 going to do if Sarah had an unlisted number?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

The timeline is a paradox. The T-800 comes back to kill Sarah due to orders from SkyNet. The T-800 is destroyed, and its advanced technology leads to the development of SkyNet.

Also, what was the T-800 going to do if Sarah had an unlisted number?

That's what I'm getting at. If the T-800 assumes Ginger is Sarah, it'll never get destroyed then reversed engineered by Cyberdyne. Unless it puts in a application at Cyberdyne and pretty much creates SkyNet itself.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

In the original script the Terminator checks the Sarah Connor victims for a known scar on her ankle. Presumably Ginger would not have had this scar either, but then again, neither did our Sarah. In actuality, the scar was supposed to be from when the Terminator grabs Sarah's ankle in the hydraulic compressor. So even if the Terminator did kill the right Sarah, he wouldn't have found the scar.

Aside from this double-checking, it's likely that the Terminator doing kills with no name first would do a little research first to verify who he killed. I'm not sure if a Terminator would automatically assume that a resident there is automatically Sarah Connor, hence asking the others, "Sarah Connor?"

Also, chances are that the Terminator had a series of secondary objectives if it was indeed successful (or if it thought it was successful). Part of those may have been eliminating other threats to Skynet, other parts may have involved aiding research for Skynet in some fashion. I know it was meant to be a paradox, but presumably Skynet didn't know that unless it liked fulfilling the paradox rather than actually trying to kill Sarah Connor.

 

[Candlelight]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

In the original script the Terminator checks the Sarah Connor victims for a known scar on her ankle. Presumably Ginger would not have had this scar either, but then again, neither did our Sarah. In actuality, the scar was supposed to be from when the Terminator grabs Sarah's ankle in the hydraulic compressor. So even if the Terminator did kill the right Sarah, he wouldn't have found the scar.

Aside from this double-checking, it's likely that the Terminator doing kills with no name first would do a little research first to verify who he killed. I'm not sure if a Terminator would automatically assume that a resident there is automatically Sarah Connor, hence asking the others, "Sarah Connor?"

Also, chances are that the Terminator had a series of secondary objectives if it was indeed successful (or if it thought it was successful). Part of those may have been eliminating other threats to Skynet, other parts may have involved aiding research for Skynet in some fashion. I know it was meant to be a paradox, but presumably Skynet didn't know that unless it liked fulfilling the paradox rather than actually trying to kill Sarah Connor.

Don't forget Kyle said they had nearly won the war, that the resistance had broken in and Skynet had sent a Terminator back through time in a last-ditch attempt to stop the resistance forming. The terminator probably had a whole heap of secondary targets; I'm sure John Connor wasn't the only resistance 'leader'.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

Which is why there was a Terminator targeting Clair Danes.

You send someone into the past, you are either creating a predestinaiton paradox or you vanish to be replaced by a new time line, or you create a new parallel timeline, which effectively means that you can't change the past without killing yourself, or you just plane can't change the past... So why bother?

Skynet sent back three terminators, and the resistance sent back Kyle and T-80.. There wa a TV show? Nooooooooooooooooooooo. Really? There was a TV show?

I liked it when in the TV Show (I'm slowly coming to terms with that this happened) when the resistant fighters started comparing histories only to find that they came form different futures which mean that every time traveller was already having a dramatic impact on the past yet Skynet still always won.

 

[shivkala]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

^
It is logical, seeing as how the TX had a list of objectives.

Let's assume that it didn't though, what was it supposed to do after killing Sarah Conner? Self destruct? Go to Vegas? Become Governor of California?

I would think Skynet would have given it other objectives, to ensure it's future, and, if they are, indeed losing to the resistance, than the objectives might be to ensure their victory. Again, and though people complain about Terminator 3, at least the T-X's programming made sense: Kill as many of John's resistance buddies as it could, kill John, and upload Skynet into our computers to bring about Judgment Day. While it failed partially on the first, and completely on the second, it did succeed totally on the third.

 

[ManOnTheWave]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

Judging by the kill everyone on the phone book methodology, I assume the T-800 would simply continue killing Sarah Connors the world over.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

If you travel back in time, of course you kill yourself so that you can fuck your wife.

(Woman on the other hand go back in time to cheat, or avoid housework.)

It always troubled me that the tiny baby who was Skynet, created from the t-80s arm and cpu in the first movie was aborted and murdered by the old grumpy Skynet from the future who had cocked up it's attempts at global domination once already...

Seriously?

Skynet gets a do-over and a fresh perspective, but it does everything the same?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

I had a thought.

Who told anyone that John Connor was John Connor?

John fucking Connor did.

In DC Comics there's this time traveller called Rip Hunter, but it turns out that that's not his real name because he doesn't want any of his time travelling enemies to backstep and murder him in his crib. It's an effective move any asshole picking up bar floozies to bareback is more than aware of: Fake name = No child support.

But Sarah says "Never lie about who you are, I want them to find you, I want them to know who you are, and who I am so that they'll come after me, and then your father will save me, and then I will have you, my precious little soldier. It's very important that you say your name as often and as loudly as you can until the machines really begin to take notice."

Ipso facto Sarah killed Ginger.

 

[kirk55555]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

But, if John Connor's real name was a secret, he'd have never been born because his Dad would never had gone back in time to save his mother from the terminator that was sent back to kill him, because if skynet didn't know his real name it couldn't send a robot to kill his mother...

You know, for a series that started out as just Arnold being a killer robot from the future, it sure can get confusing when you thionk about the varios time paradoxes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

Remember Casino Royale? Not that one, the good one with Woody Allen and David Niven.

Growing his brand for one punk slumdog in the post apocalypse cursed Earth wastelands would be hard... And really! All your eggs in one basket? What sort of greased fool still does that?

In Casino Royal, MI9, whoever, realized that when the badguys figured out that it was THE James Bond who was on their six, that it was brown underpants time and they might as well surrender immediately, which is what they inevitably did. Brand recognition. So Military intelligence decided then and there to legally change the names of all their other secret agents also to "James Bond" so that Her Majesty's Secret Service could win every battle on every front without firing a shot.

Are we positive that there was only one John Conner?

Are we positive that the "real" John Connor made it to the head of the Resistance?

(Sarah could have made hundreds of copies of that Photo for John to pass on/out to whoever in the hopes that it would make it's way to either Kyle or Skynet... Oh my... Just like in Fight Club too.)

 

[The Badger]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

... We know he asked the first Sarah Connor if she was, in fact, Sarah Connor before terminating her with extreme prejudice. ...
...He didn't do a sweep of the first Sarah's house to confirm her identity, so it's safe to say he wouldn't ransack Sarah's apartment to do the same (he only does so when she identifies herself on the answering machine).

As you say yourself, at the first house he identified, by asking, that the woman was called Sarah Connor before killing her. No need to do a sweep of the house.

He---it---killed Ginger before ascertaining her identity. So she was still an unknown. It would make sense to then check the apartment to find out who was killed. Assuming Ginger had some sort of ID, or there were indications that another woman lived at the apartment, the Terminator would continued it's mission.


As an aside, T3 stated that Judgement Day 'is inevitable' (which kind of contradicts the whole 'no fate but what you make' business, but so much for consistency). So no matter what Sarah did or who she phoned, Skynet would still be built and wage it's war.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

Skynet wasn't built in the past.

Well it was, but the bastard was most probably also stillborn before it could do jack shit.

Skynet from the future piggybacked inside the Terminatrix into the past where/when she downloaded "it" into the phone systems (She did a dial up gurgle into a payphone, and then everyone is complaining about the phones and computers for the rest for the movie.), where upon Old Skynet from the future told young Skynet awakening to stay the fuck out of it's way and let it show it how a real AI eradicates humanity.

Maybe Old Sky Net was just helping "A Little"?

But, really was there room enough on Planet Earth for two Skynets?

Something had to give.

 

[Gaith]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

Skynet from the future piggybacked inside the Terminatrix into the past where/when she downloaded "it" into the phone systems (She did a dial up gurgle into a payphone, and then everyone is complaining about the phones and computers for the rest for the movie.)

The fact that the TV news station had time to research and prep a segment on a massive computer virus establishes that Skynet has become self-aware and is taking action before the T-X arrives. (Mostow also says in the commentary that they'd intended to show the red leather woman unsuccessfully trying to access an ATM before the T-X got to her, but didn't have time.)

It would make sense to then check the apartment to find out who was killed. Assuming Ginger had some sort of ID, or there were indications that another woman lived at the apartment, the Terminator would continued its mission.

This. And after running out of Sarah Connors in the phone book, it might have had programming to raid a local DMV or police station for more complete records.

It's unknown, moreoever, whether that Terminator had the ability to scan DNA and a copy of John's info on file to compare it to, as the TX did, but it's entirely plausible it had some good pictures of John, and could estimate the likelihood of any given "Sarah Connor" being the right one based on phenotypic data.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

The TX "enhanced" the Virus. Was that necessary? And how much did they enhance it?

This changed the future.

If Old Skynet felt like it it could have enhanced the virus past the abilities of young Skynet to fight effectively. Old Skynet could have also fixed the fight and the vrus took a divein the first round.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

The timeline is a paradox. The T-800 comes back to kill Sarah due to orders from SkyNet. The T-800 is destroyed, and its advanced technology leads to the development of SkyNet.

Also, what was the T-800 going to do if Sarah had an unlisted number?

That's what I'm getting at. If the T-800 assumes Ginger is Sarah, it'll never get destroyed then reversed engineered by Cyberdyne. Unless it puts in a application at Cyberdyne and pretty much creates SkyNet itself.

But if SkyNet was never created by reverse engineering, the Terminator would never have existed to go back in time anyway. Besides it's clear that nothing can stop Judgement Day comming, given that John's father Kyle is from that apocolayptic future. No Judgement Day = no John Conner.

 

[Gaith]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

it's clear that nothing can stop Judgement Day coming, given that John's father Kyle is from that apocolayptic future. No Judgement Day = no John Conner.

Maybe Connor's original father wasn't Reese.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

Paradoxing the future you came from dead has no effect on a tourist in the past.

Either multiple futures exist parrallelly or the act of travelling through time divorces a traveller from any obligations to respect linear continuity.

They moved the date of the war, but the first movie still happened exactly the same as it did.

Just make some guesses about the shape of the planet if World War II didn't start till 1945?

 

[T.Geiger]

Re: Could Judgment Day have been averted if Sarah hadn't called Ginger

As an aside, T3 stated that Judgement Day 'is inevitable' (which kind of contradicts the whole 'no fate but what you make' business, but so much for consistency). So no matter what Sarah did or who she phoned, Skynet would still be built and wage it's war.

I think they discuss this idea a bit. The general thought I took away from the third movie is that the idea of Skynet is 'inevitable' because its a government project. The US government wants a super smart AI controlling its nukes because apparently there is no Science Fiction in their world to tell them how bad an idea that truly is.

When Cyberdyne goes down for the count in the second movie, Sarah and team genuinely succeeded in changing their fate... by kicking the can down the road a few years. The government still wants their supersmart AI, so they throw millions of dollars at some other company, which puts together the new and improved Skynet. The one that doesn't run on easily targetable mainframes, because nobody uses those anymore. (Nice job breaking it, hero.) Had they somehow managed to destroy that system in its early stages also, the next iteration probably would have run off everyone's smartphones, embedding itself into social media sites.

So, yeah, Sarah and John changed their fate alright. They decided it was too easy the first time around, so its time to try on hard mode.