Bleach - Anime Disscussion (Spoilers)

[Technobuilder]

Finally! (No Filler)

The beginning of the Vizard flashbacks.

I've been waiting for a return to this type of character storytelling in Bleach since the 'Invasion of Hueco Mundo' arc began.

I admit I knew a bit about this storyline already from jumping ahead and reading the Manga, but I still thought it was fantastic and so far goes a long way toward revealing character backgrounds and relationships as well as the main motivational impetus of Aizen and sets up justification for much of the continuing storyline of Bleach. The fighting is meaningless unless you know just why two characters fighting might be important afterall.

I have to say, I'm looking forward to the conclusion of this arc.

 

[zakkrusz]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

I really don't like the disjointed nature the series has adopted at this point: randomly stopping in the middle of good parts to stall with filler. Plus, the manga even stalls it at this point to do the flashback arc so it's twice the sidetracking but at least this should be a more entertaining and substatial diversion that provides info I've been wanting to learn about. Thanks for reminding me it's out. I haven't keeping up the past couple weeks because of work and college, and will have to make some time.

 

[Technobuilder]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

I wasn't a fan of the "we're pausing to start a Filler Arc" idea myself, but there wasn't a good place to stop where a filler storyarc would have flowed naturally into or out of the existing storyline (like they did with the Bount Arc, delaying the start of Hostilities with Heuco Mundo by a year).

However, while I didn't like it, I could understand why they did it. Filler is the nature of the Anime Business. (However I'd prefer that they just take breaks by showing something else.) They don't seem to think that's a good idea for some reason I still can't figure out though.

What really bugged me about Bleach recently was the inclusion of Filler material and Filler Conversations between characters in order to stretch for time during actual story-based, plot-heavy the episodes... They're already repeating almost 5 minutes of the previous episode in recapping events at the start of a new episode, it's just getting repetitive at this point.

Anyway, glad someone else is interested with the Vizard Flashback Arc, as well. Hopefully it plays straight through without any filler interuptions.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

The start of this new chapter was as interesting and promising as I expected. I don`t think this story is a filler at all. Also in the past we had flashbacks in Bleach that not only make these characters more interesting but first of all more three dimensional. The more we know about their pasts, the more we can understand how they feel and act in the present and predict what they will do next.

In previous chapters the flashbacks looking at the history of Rukia and Renji, of Ichigo, Ishida as well as Kempachi and Yashiru (just the examples that come to my mind right now) add a lot to the rich tapestry of characters and my enjoyment of the series.

I think it is an excellent idea to explore the early history of Aizen and look at what will lead to the crisis in present day Bleach. I am a newcomer to Bleach and watched all these 200 plus episodes within a very short period of time without having much time yet to actually process everything. I looked into “The Bleach Breakdown” (which is the unofficial guide I find very helpful) but the mentioning of Royal Guard and Zero Squad felt new to me and I couldn`t find information about this in the book.
To have a better idea what this mysterious separate dimension is where the rulers above the soul society are, the people Aizen wants to conquer, will be a good idea, too.

As much as I like the Hueco Mundo chapters so far, the motivations behind Aizen and the motivations of his followers need to be explored in more detail. I would be disappointed if there is not more behind it than a lust for power.

Getting more background about the Vizards is an added bonus. I found them intriguing from the beginning and see them as a natural progression from what I learned about the Bleach universe so far and Ichigo`s powers.

It was interesting to see who was already around 110 years ago from the captains, vice-captains and other characters we know from present day Bleach. It was amusing to see that some of these people haven`t changed and I could see why Soi Fon reached the position she has now. Kisuke in this episode was very amusing. I could see that he is very keen on keeping his shop clean. Seeing the state of his laboratory was therefore not something I expected.

I think this was a very interesting and entertaining episode. My daughter loved it and she laughed when Hirako was making faces.

We are all looking forward to next week.

 

[zakkrusz]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

After reading volume 25 of the manga one interesting thing of note is that VIZ's official translation of the VIzards/Visards is the Visoreds. I imagine since VIZ puts out the anime here too this will be the official name for them whenever they get to that point in the series.

It was interesting to learn that 3 of them at least used to be captains (Shinji, Love, and Rose) and a few others were vice or higher. This makes sense I guess since it's been proven that Bankai makes it easier for your inner-hollow to gain a foothold.

 

[Technobuilder]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

The start of this new chapter was as interesting and promising as I expected. I don`t think this story is a filler at all.

Just so I'm sure that we're all clear on this...

The "Vizard Flashback Arc" is NOT a Filler-Arc, it's a Manga-Arc.

It's in the book. Therefore, I don't care if it's a flashback, a flashforward, a side-step, or an entire season of The Joy of Painting with Bob Ross, featuring Rukia Kuchiki. If it's essential to the understanding the larger story, then it's good.

If it's inconsequential to the larger narrative, just like the "Soccer Tournament" episodes (Bleach 204 & Bleach 205) which were Filler Episodes, then I'd rather they just didn't do those in the first place, UNLESS they can find something particularly special to add to the show without affecting the larger story, much like what I believe was done with the Bount Arc. (Though again I never finished it, I'm just going by what others have said.)

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

After reading volume 25 of the manga one interesting thing of note is that VIZ's official translation of the VIzards/Visards is the Visoreds. I imagine since VIZ puts out the anime here too this will be the official name for them whenever they get to that point in the series.

It was interesting to learn that 3 of them at least used to be captains (Shinji, Love, and Rose) and a few others were vice or higher. This makes sense I guess since it's been proven that Bankai makes it easier for your inner-hollow to gain a foothold.

“The Bleach Breakdown” is using the translation “Vizards” but it seems the official translation will indeed be “Visoreds”. I like “Vizards” more and I think I will stick with that until I can see what the DVD release will reveal.

From what I could see you have to be at least at about the power level of a captain when you reach the point that the dark side, the hollow side is more and more likely to enter and try to corrupt and control you. Only much later I understood the significance of the hollow mask that mysteriously kept coming back after being thrown away. For lack of a better description the hollow dimension in Ichigo started to get interested in him long before he was able to do Bankai. It probably started when Urahara trained him and exposed him to that power. Already then Ichigo was extremely powerful. He just had very little knowledge of how to control this power, an ideal combination when you look at it from the perspective of the hollow power.

I think what is also important is the nature of the raw power that person has and also his or her personality. Kempachi can`t do Bankai but I can imagine that he is also at risk should he ever be exposed to the hollow side.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

Just so I'm sure that we're all clear on this...

The "Vizard Flashback Arc" is NOT a Filler-Arc, it's a Manga-Arc.

It's in the book. Therefore, I don't care if it's a flashback, a flashforward, a side-step, or an entire season of The Joy of Painting with Bob Ross, featuring Rukia Kuchiki. If it's essential to the understanding the larger story, then it's good.

If it's inconsequential to the larger narrative, just like the "Soccer Tournament" episodes (Bleach 204 & Bleach 205) which were Filler Episodes, then I'd rather they just didn't do those in the first place, UNLESS they can find something particularly special to add to the show without affecting the larger story, much like what I believe was done with the Bount Arc. (Though again I never finished it, I'm just going by what others have said.)

What is in the books has already been on TV, at least in general. But not all what has been on TV can be found in the books, as I learned.

I agree, at the end it doesn`t matter what label you give a story. Even if it is intended as a filler, also a filler can be a significant story. The first part we could see this week gave me new information and that alone shows me that it is significant. That is was also entertaining only adds to it and makes me looking forward to more.

The “Soccer Tournament” story was just entertaining fluff but nevertheless, I wonder if at least one element might become significant in future. I found it very interesting that Orihime used her powers to repair the ball. It is the first time I have seen her using her healing power on an object instead of a person.

From what I can see it seems the whole Bount story is indeed inconsequential to the larger narrative. I am not sure about the princess story (the new captain part seems to be inconsequential). I can imagine that the princess element will come up again (as it did in the soccer story) but will be left out in the larger narrative.

 

[zakkrusz]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

That filler with the new 3rd squad Captain did actually serve the purpose of further developing Vice Captain Kira Izuru at least and the Bount arc did the same thing for a lot of the other Soul Reaper characters. Filler stuff does sometimes have it's uses depending on the story.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

I agree with you if such character developments in these filler arcs are actually being built on in the main story you can find in the books. I especially liked the developments of Kira Izuru but if that will actually be reflected in the main story remains to be seen. My memory concerning the Bount story is somewhat patchy. I can`t say if any character developments there were referred to in the main arcs. All I can see is that the Soul Society chapters and the Hueco Mundo chapters in the Mangas fit together seamlessly.

As I said, I also enjoy good filler stories and the Bount arc is one of the first I watched. Unfortunately these episodes are not accessible to me at the moment so that I can`t watch them again.

 

[zakkrusz]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

Well, there was one instance as I recall. It was when Ichigo was training with the Visoreds and was having his little internal battle durring his full hollowification process. In the manga it's only a visage of Kenpachi that appears to him but in the anime he also gets Jin Kariya as well.

 

[Technobuilder]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

Good Point, the Anime isn't always a direct translation of the Manga, but as long as what's being shown has importance to the overall storyline or in fleshing out the backgrounds of characters who wouldn't be getting screen time otherwise, then it's ok in my opinion.

For example, the Bleach Films...

Bleach - Memories of Nobody was a very good movie from where I'm sitting, the framing of the story is specific and personal, yet the impact on reality is inconsequential to the flow of time, making it fit perfectly anywhere in the story after Ichico had returned from Soul Society that first time.

Bleach - The Diamond Dust Rebellion wasn't as good in my opinion, but maybe that's because they never explained to me why the main point of the story was even possible in the first place. (I'm being vauge so if you haven't seen this it doesn't spoil it for you.) I don't mind them making up new rules, as long as they fit into the ones that have already been established, and here is where my main issue with the film breaks down. Well that and the fact that the Captain Commander seems to jump the gun on declaring people traitors for whatever reason. I really wish they would expand upon and explain his character more than they have.

That said however, I loved the introspective nature of the film and was glad the Bleach universe is so expansive that they can focus on characters other than just Ichigo when framing a narritive.

Bleach - Fade To Black, I Call Your Name hasn't been translated into English yet, and my Japanese is non-existant, so I'm waiting for the Japanese DVD release next year like everyone else. Until then, From the trailers I've seen and the interstitial openings during some of the Anime episodes this year, It looks like another interesting storyline. I know they keep coming up with reasons for all the Captains to be fighting Ichigo, but I'm really interested in it this time as I'm hoping Soul Society goes, where did they Ryoka that can pull off a Bankai and knows each of us by name come from?

 

[zakkrusz]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the 3rd film quite a bit, and I wish VIZ here in the states would hurry up on putting out the 2nd on DVD.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

I enjoyed “Memories of Nobody” too. It is easy to understand because when that movie was made the Bleach universe was less complex than it is now. It is a good entertaining story that gives all main characters something to do and could indeed be fit anywhere.

“The Diamond Dust Rebellion” is building on a far more complex Bleach universe. I understood what is going on including all the references and vocabularies that was sometimes thrown around too casually. If these movies are first of all aimed at the informed fan then it adds to it but if these movies are also made in order to attract new viewers, then a lot of it was unnecessary and might put people off.

Unfortunately the Captain Commander was just in character. I predicted his reaction from the beginning. He acted the same in the Soul Society chapter. He also was immediately thinking Orihime is a traitor in the most recent chapters. I wonder sometimes, why is this man still sitting where he is? I dislike that character immensely and consider him to be at best a liability and at worst a danger. He certainly isn`t a leader I would trust. It seems it is more his power and his rank that keeps most of the higher ranking officers, including captains, in line than trust and true respect. But not all of them and I am glad about that. From the latest flashback we know that he has been around for a very long time. I have the gut feeling that Bleach will explore this character more pretty soon.

What I enjoyed about “The Diamond Dust Rebellion” is how all the characterizations, the appearances of so many characters felt so natural to me. I could see that the writers put a lot of thought into this movie.

I watched the teasers for “Fade to Black” and I can only say, it looks very interesting. Hm, I have to look into it if there is a German translation.

 

[Technobuilder]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the 3rd film quite a bit, and I wish VIZ here in the states would hurry up on putting out the 2nd on DVD.

Other than translation time, why does Viz wait so long before putting out an American Release?

I'm a "Subs" sort of person, I prefer them over "Dubs". However, I guess it's understandable that that wouldn't be everyone else's first choice.

Is the demand of Dubbed Releases justification for the delays, or are there other reasons that complicate the release of these films for the American market.

Producing an interpreted translation with timed 'coherent' subtitles has to be quicker than going through a casting process, and then dubbing the movie doesn't it?

Guess I'm just anxious for Bleach - Fade To Black to be released, and it's just hard to believe that Bleach - The Diamond Dust Rebellion is still not out on DVD in the States as of yet.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

"Memories of Nobody" is not even out here in Britain, yet. It is announced for early June. I have it on pre-order at Amazon UK.

They are quicker here with boxed sets. The third season set has been offered for pre-order split into part 1 and part 2. I am not that desperate and can wait a few months more and get the third season in one set. It is cheaper and the full season box also looks much nicer than the two part set.

But, yes, I also can`t get the official releases quickly enough.

I can`t say what I prefer. I like both, "Subs" and "Dubs". "Subs" certainly benefit my six-year-old who sees watching Bleach also as a good opportunity to train her reading skills and she learned some bits and pieces of Japanese, too.

It seems that there is no German translation of "Fade to Black". What a shame. Unfortunately I don`t speak Italian. I could get that but, no, I wait and keep looking.

Now with the credit crunch world wide, I hope that won`t affect future releases. I certainly do my best to support the franchise and if many people buy these DVDs, hopefully they will be released faster.

 

[zakkrusz]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the 3rd film quite a bit, and I wish VIZ here in the states would hurry up on putting out the 2nd on DVD.

Other than translation time, why does Viz wait so long before putting out an American Release?

I'm a "Subs" sort of person, I prefer them over "Dubs". However, I guess it's understandable that that wouldn't be everyone else's first choice.

Is the demand of Dubbed Releases justification for the delays, or are there other reasons that complicate the release of these films for the American market.

Producing an interpreted translation with timed 'coherent' subtitles has to be quicker than going through a casting process, and then dubbing the movie doesn't it?

Guess I'm just anxious for Bleach - Fade To Black to be released, and it's just hard to believe that Bleach - The Diamond Dust Rebellion is still not out on DVD in the States as of yet.

Well, Viz also has Naruto, and Hunter X Hunter as well as it's upcomming release of Monster, Honey and Clover and a few others it's working on so the company does have other stuff besides Bleach.

If I had to take a stab at why we have to wait so long it's because VIZ is basically a giant figurehead and outsources most of it's translation and dubbing to Ocean Group, Bang Zoom, and other independent dubbing companies. Maybe the wait is their fault instead. Companies like ADV and Funimation can churn out stuff faster because they own their own dubbing studios and do all their own translation. This is why Funimation is the leading anime liscensor here in the US, dominating the shelves, because they have the abillity and the staff to put out like 20 series at once and cash to secure more through liscenses.

Also yes, dubbing is very important especially for series that air on TV here. A subtitled series just is not marketable to any respectable network here especially since anime is barely marketable to television broadcast companies as it is. It could be the best anime arround but nobody is seemingly aware that animation can tell just as good a story and the general public is not patient enough for subtitles.

Me? I take my anime any way I can get it, dubbed or subbed, sometimes even raw if neither is available. Although, I generally prefer dubs as I consider subtitles to be too invasive as they abstruct part of the screen. It's a bit like writing an explantion on a piece of art. Raw would be the best way to watch it but my Japanese sucks (50-60 words at most) so I'd say English dubbed is roughly the best way to preserve the same type of audio and visual experience. It's also helpful that bad dubs have become extremely rare nowadays, I've even encountered a variety of series that were actually just plain better in English (Beck: Mongolian Chop Squad, Black Lagoon).

 

[Technobuilder]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

^Admittedly, I haven't tried many Dubbed series in quite a while.

Last time I watched Full Metal Alchemist on Cartoon Network, the English Voice actors just sounded wrong to my ears. (But then, I'd seen the entire series with Japanese Voice actors and English Subs already.)

I can't understand Japanese to save my life, but I do enjoy "hearing" the Japanese Voice actors in my head speaking English as I read along.

The Subs don't bother me at all, I don't even notice them after a time, I'm just watching Bleach and everything is making sense without having to concentrate or even think about it.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

Coming from Germany, I grew up with dubbed series. A lot of what is on German TV are US imports and they are naturally dubbed there. I quickly learned to apprecitate the original English because some of these dubs can be pretty awful. I especially noticed that with Star Trek.

Bleach is the first series I follow as an original with subtitles. It was difficult first because I was not used to it but by now I rarely have problems. Only when there is a LOT of text I need to watch the episode again so that I don`t miss anything. I especially had that problem when the big revelation about Aizen came and I completely lost track during the info dump.

I only learned the odd Japanese word here and there. My daughter definitely caught more but she is a young child so that this is not surprising.

She is in the spirit of things sometimes. We had dinner while watching Bleach one day and when she belched my husband said sternly: "What do you say?" We didn`t expect this answer: "Belch-kai!" It still makes me laugh.

 

[zakkrusz]

Re: Bleach - 206 (Spoilers)

^Admittedly, I haven't tried many Dubbed series in quite a while.

Last time I watched Full Metal Alchemist on Cartoon Network, the English Voice actors just sounded wrong to my ears. (But then, I'd seen the entire series with Japanese Voice actors and English Subs already.)

I can't understand Japanese to save my life, but I do enjoy "hearing" the Japanese Voice actors in my head speaking English as I read along.

The Subs don't bother me at all, I don't even notice them after a time, I'm just watching Bleach and everything is making sense without having to concentrate or even think about it.

Yeah, that's a problem for a lot of people who get used to one set of voices and then have trouble getting used to a second set. I feel the same when franchises like Yu Yu Hakusho have their titles split between two companies and each produces their own English dubs with different casts. For me it only works with English though. I don't have that issue with different languages, for some reason something just doesn't click. So I usually end up judging dubs more on whether the acting sounds real or whether a conversation sounds natural rather than does voice actor B sound like Japanese voice actor A or not, which I don't think is even relevant since I think of them as two seperate performances.

Then again I'm one who enjoys the fact that I can watch the same series two different ways with a bilingual DVD to change things up every once in a while or have another option if one is better. When I get the discs for example I usually watch it the oposite way that I originally saw the series (the default language track if I haven't watched it). For instance I first watched Black Lagoon fansubed so when I got the DVDs it was dubbed. This one was a particular improvement over the Japanese track because the series is distinctly more of a "western" styled action series than most anime and English is frequently used in the series by the Japanese voice actors and frankly they mangle it, especially all the cursing. English VAs are naturally better at English and the series just flows better in my opinion.

Bleach, I could watch either way. No real preference there.