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anyone else bored/frustrated by all the "Mary Sue" debates?

Phil123

Phil123

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Though I accept they aren't always meant as such, it all seems to have an unpleasant undercurrent of sexism. Implying that a woman who is very good at her job is a bad character, and essentially not realistic. Even when the term is applied to a male character, the fact that it's a female name is inescapable.

Just after writing the above I came across this article, which explores the origins of the term:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...e-collins-review-correcting-sexist-narratives
 
Shitty writing should never go uncriticized.

Author's works shouldn't be criticized because of their gender, but they shouldn't be immune from criticism because of it either.

FWIW, Wesley Crusher is a Gary Stu. The male types of these characters suck just as bad as the female varieties and get dumped on accordingly.
 
Is this the thread about being tired of all the Mary Sue debates that devolves into a Mary Sue debate?

Yes I'm tired of the Mary Sue debates. I wish we could just get back to good Star Trek with Good characters. 18 years and counting.
 
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First of all, I never really got the concept of "Mary Sue" characters. Yes I know what it means, but I never really understood why it's a thing.

Secondly, I've been here for nearly 13 years. I don't really post in the Trek fora as much as I used to over ten years ago. Know why? Because lot of the topics have been debated and discussed to death, and there would be periods where there were a bunch of threads across the trek fora that seemed to focus on one thing or two, like the Mary Sue threads these days.

While I do venture into the trek fora a bit, I don't go there and post as much as I used to. TNZ, Fan Art and the Admiral Lounge are my go-to fora. It has been that way for a while now.
 
It's been my observation that people only complain about Mary Sues when it's not a character they like. Also, the term has been used in such an inflationary way, it's lost all meaning. Competent character? Mary Sue! Woman beats man? Mary Sue! New character is related to old one? Mary Sue! Child prodigy? Mary Sue! The debate has become tired and old and just plain meaningless at this point. Also, the OP has a point: in many cases, people accuse female characters who don't display any more skills than their male genre counterparts of being Sues. That's not true for all cases, but it happens a lot - so much, in fact, that it's often only used to dismiss a character instead of criticising them. That is why I have stopped calling Seven of Nine one, even though she ticks a bunch of the boxes on the litmus test. It doesn't help anyone. It's almost like calling someone a Nazi on the internet. It's usually devoid of meaning and it's just used to dismiss something one does not approve of.
 
I’ve always thought there was supposed to be an element of wish fulfillment and self-substitution on the part of the author, which is why early-TNG Wesley Crusher always felt like one.
 
Here's the thing: you can have a well-written "Mary Sue", and a badly-written "Mary Sue", but only if the "Mary Sue" is purposely written as such in order to make a point (such as the comic "Ensign Sue Must Die!").
 
drt said:
I’ve always thought there was supposed to be an element of wish fulfillment and self-substitution on the part of the author, which is why early-TNG Wesley Crusher always felt like one.
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He seriously always had a homework assignment that either got the ship into or out of trouble.
 
Disco!Disco! said:
Kirk is a Gary Stu, but he caters to dudes' power fantasies, so you don't hear them complain.
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I'm going to disagree on that. I think that the pop culture idea of Kirk is what is a Gary Stu. The pew-pew-banging-all-the-green-chicks-dramatic-pause-while-talking-Kirk is the Gary Stu. But the actual Kirk from the show and movies(not including JJ) is not that way. The actual Kirk made plenty of mistakes, was willing to listen to others, and trained to get his skills.
 
Anyone who disagrees with me is sexist, racist, homophobic or some combination of the the three. Which is great because I don't have to waste any time considering their arguments.
 
uniderth said:
I'm going to disagree on that. I think that the pop culture idea of Kirk is what is a Gary Stu. The pew-pew-banging-all-the-green-chicks-dramatic-pause-while-talking-Kirk is the Gary Stu. But the actual Kirk from the show and movies(not including JJ) is not that way. The actual Kirk made plenty of mistakes, was willing to listen to others, and trained to get his skills.
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Yeah, we're not going to agree. I think of the dude who got lots of women to fall for him, made captain at a young age, was able to take on Khan hand-to-hand, was able to fight a Klingon hand-to-hand when he was older, climbed El Capitan with no equipment...I'm sure I can think of more.

But I guess we do agree on Kelvin!Kirk. Holee crap! Notice that hardly anyone called him a Stu though.

If Jane Kirk did half the things Jim Kirk did....
 
Disco!Disco! said:
But I guess we do agree on Kelvin!Kirk. Holee crap! Notice that hardly anyone called him a Stu though.
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That I will agree on. Was the term even in common use then? I don't remember hearing JJKirk called that, but I do remember lost of complaining about his Gary Stu-like attributes even if they were never labelled as such.
 
JJKirk was Gary Stu because he magically got captain, magically came back from the dead after kicking the warp core back online, magically won his battles against all logic, common sense or tactics; etc.
Had he been written better, had he earned his command and paid for his mistakes, I would have enjoyed his character much more.
 
marlboro said:
Anyone who disagrees with me is sexist, racist, homophobic or some combination of the the three. Which is great because I don't have to waste any time considering their arguments.
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That's nonsense flippancy. All arguments are not created equal. You're basically playing the 'Snowflake card', anyone who disagrees with YOU just has a hair trigger on race and sex issues.

Over half the time people use the phrase Mary Sue it's from people with notable patterns of hating competent female characters, and people who would never accuse an equally competent male of being a Marty Stu.
 
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