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Andorians -- four genders?

Sgt_G

Commodore
Commodore
I could have necro'd an old thread for this, but I chose instead to start a new topic......

From what I understand, the entire concept that there are four genders in the Andorian species is based solely on a throw-away line by Commander Data stating Andorian marriages require four individuals. How that automatically equates to there being four genders is beyond me. Perhaps it's simply tradition based on ancient survival needs in which one male would go hunt for food while the other remained behind to protect the family. And of course having two females to care for the children means they have a better survival rate. This was so ingrained into Andorian society and religion it remains true even into modern times.

I for one cannot accept the idea that any species could evolve to require the mating of four individuals, the joining of four separate genetic sources, to produce one offspring. Especially for a humanoid species, for we are all "Sargon's Children". And I really don't want to think about the mechanics of how that would happen, physically.

The other night, there was a nature show on TV talking about ants, specifically a type of ant that must cross-bred with another type of ant to produce drones. This got me thinking......

Suppose Andorians are actually two inter-related species, let's call them alphas and betas. Andorians can tell alphas from betas, but the differences are too subtle for outsiders to see (smell??). There are alpha females with genetic code AA and alpha males with genetic code Ab. Likewise there are beta females BB and beta males Ba. As males can (normally) only pass on the dominate gene (A not b), alpha couples can only produce alpha females, and beta couples produce beta females. When an alpha male mates with a beta female, he passes his alpha gene when will become the non-dominate gene to the offspring, who would be a beta male. And vice versa for a beta male with an alpha female, creating an alpha male. Ergo, for the survival of both species, they must both bred to produce females and cross-bred to produce males.

In the rare case when the non-dominate gene (b instead of A) is passed on, the resulting child of an alpha couple is an alpha male, but unfortunately these offspring are ALWAYS sterile and can never father the next generation. Likewise a alpha male / beta female creates a sterile beta female child, and vice versa for beta couples = sterile beta male or beta male / alpha female = sterile alpha female. In pre-industrial times, these situations were rare, perhaps once in five thousand births, but due to environmental effects, i.e. pollution and radiation, these sterile offspring are becoming more and more prevalent, as much as one in forty. Further, medical testing indicates that some males are unable to pass on the dominate gene at all, so all of their offspring will be sterile, bringing forth the fear that the species may become extinct if modern science can't reverse the trend.

So, what do you all think??
 
From what I understand, the entire concept that there are four genders in the Andorian species is based solely on a throw-away line by Commander Data stating Andorian marriages require four individuals. How that automatically equates to there being four genders is beyond me.

In a nutshell, it doesn't. If Data were truly referring to four genders, then he would have said that "procreation" requires four individuals, not "marriage." A marriage is simply a social contract. For all we know, Andorian marriages are by our standards polygamous, where one Andorian guy marries three Andorian women, or vice versa. Or that it's two guys and two girls, and they share husband and wife duties between them. But the thing about four genders was a complete fabrication on the part of the Trek novel writers, who IMHO took Data's line completely out of context. And there certainly didn't seem to be four genders when we saw Andorians in ENT.
 
The four genders is a TrekkLit thing. Never really been part of the show. Enterprise, the only show to explore the Andorians, never mentioned it.
My take:
I never followed fanon or Treklit, so my Andorians are based on "Journey to Babel" and my own imagination. My Andorians were a caste based Matriarchy. Each family/social unit is comprised of a female and groups of three males from different castes called a triad. The bond between the males is very deep and can only be broken by death. The number of triads bonded to each female varies. The Matriarchal Council that rules Andor is comprised of the most powerful females.
All males become part of their father's caste. (Somehow they know which member of the triad is the father) All females are raised separate from the males to become matriarchs. I did base the idea of the triad on the comment that there are four participants in an Andorian wedding, but kept the sexes involved to two
 
I think it's an interesting idea worth exploring, at least. Why dismiss the possibility that alien species would have completely unknown ways of reproducing? Not every species on earth even reproduces the same way as humans; we have lizards that reproduce asexually, seahorses that the males are the ones who get pregnant, birds with different male forms that practically constitute sub-genders of a sort, and species who can change sex if the balance in their population isn't ideal. I don't think there's any harm in exploring the idea of a species with four distinct genders or sexes.

If the concern is that it's limiting to equate marriage to reproduction I'll agree. But I think the four genders idea may have caught on because it's interesting, not because people think it's the only logical conclusion from then mentioned line.
 
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I don't think there's any harm in exploring the idea of a species with four distinct genders or sexes.
But I think the four genders idea may have caught on because it's interesting, not because people think it's the only logical conclusion from then mentioned line.

This.
There are whole multi-book plots that revolve around the idea... they're pretty awesome.
 
The thing is that the books create the idea of there being two male and two female genders. Offspring cannot be produced without a sexual union of all four, Aenar have the same arrangment, any combination of four with Andorian and Aenar work, Green Andorians are the product of such a union.

The two male and two female are externally almost impossible to tell apart. Only the genitals and DNA are slightly different, there are specific names for all four, there are apparently differing numbers making finding breeding groups difficult.

Socially there seems to be no difference in how any of them are treated.

How that physically works makes no real sense, as they go out of their way to establish that yes there are four, but really it's still just male and female, with a second male-ish and female-ish pair. If they'd even have said we'd never seen the other two, or that they functioned very differently, with two producing genetic material, one producing something like the cogenitor then a fourth that actually carries the embreo maybe.

It's a head scratcher, and would have worked better for being a social construct similar to the Denobulans.
 
But I think the four genders idea may have caught on because it's interesting, not because people think it's the only logical conclusion from then mentioned line.
Exactly. The novel writers decided to say the Andorians had four genders because it was a cool idea, and used Data's line about marriages being between four individuals as their canonical precedent. From there the four genders idea has been used as a springboard for multiple storylines within the novel continuity, including how this could lead to a potential extinction level even the OP touches on.
 
The novel writers decided to say the Andorians had four genders because it was a cool idea, and used Data's line about marriages being between four individuals as their canonical precedent.

Except that it wasn't "canonical precedent." It was blatantly taking Data's line out of context. IIRC, he wasn't even talking about genders when he made that statement. I'm not going to argue about the merits of its storytelling potential, but the idea itself was based on writers purposely misconstruing what was said to make it into something it wasn't to suit their agenda.

It's the whole "notify the discovery over subspace radio" thing again.
 
Except that it wasn't "canonical precedent." It was blatantly taking Data's line out of context. IIRC, he wasn't even talking about genders when he made that statement. I'm not going to argue about the merits of its storytelling potential, but the idea itself was based on writers purposely misconstruing what was said to make it into something it wasn't to suit their agenda.

It's the whole "notify the discovery over subspace radio" thing again.

It's not a blatant misinterpretation, just one of several possible interpretations.

What is the "notify the discovery over subspace radio" thing?
 
There was that episode of TNG with the three gendered species where the two dominant genders needed the third to get their juices flowing and the third wanted to be free and TNG had their TNG preachy moment about subgenders being equal.
 
There was that episode of TNG with the three gendered species where the two dominant genders needed the third to get their juices flowing and the third wanted to be free and TNG had their TNG preachy moment about subgenders being equal.
That was an ENT episode.
 
What is the "notify the discovery over subspace radio" thing?
Kirk's throwaway mangled line in "The Squire of Gothos" that certain fans insist on interpreting as an order to communicate with a ship called Discovery.

Kor
 
My bad. I just wanted to provide an in universe example of when 2+ genders worked.

This conversation is interesting. I've never read any fan fiction, but somehow I got it in my head that Andorians had 4 genders too.
 
My bad. I just wanted to provide an in universe example of when 2+ genders worked.

This conversation is interesting. I've never read any fan fiction, but somehow I got it in my head that Andorians had 4 genders too.
Its not fan fiction. It's pro fiction.
 
Perhaps it's simply tradition based on ancient survival needs in which one male would go hunt for food while the other remained behind to protect the family.
That sounds reasonable. And maybe one female takes care of the kids while the other goes out and gathers plants and fruits to eat.

The other night, there was a nature show on TV talking about ants, specifically a type of ant that must cross-bred with another type of ant to produce drones. This got me thinking......
I think I watched the same program. Was it one hosted by Morgan Freeman? And talked about how the line between male and female might not be as clearly defined as we think.
 
I can only imagine a species needing four people to create offspring would slowly dwindle in numbers and die. But Just because there are four genders, it doesn't mean all four are needed to create an offspring.
 
[QUOTE="Lance Charger, post:]It is a blatant misinterpretation when the idea being presented has absolutely nothing to do with the words that were originally said.[/QUOTE]
Maybe we have a different idea of what the word "misinterpretation" means.
 
That sounds reasonable. And maybe one female takes care of the kids while the other goes out and gathers plants and fruits to eat.
Exactly. And they could stagger their pregnancies and be each other's mid-wife.

I think I watched the same program. Was it one hosted by Morgan Freeman?
Yeah, it was Morgan Freeman, but I didn't actually watch the \show but rather heard it playing in the other room while I was on the computer.
 
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