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All those human planets in TOS

Norrin Radd

Vice Admiral
It seems that the Enterprise visited practically hundreds of planets where the inhabitants looked human. But were they humans...or aliens that merely looked human? I'm asking because I find it hard to believe that, by the time of Kirk's era, humanity would have stretched so far across the galaxy to the point where they'd exist on so many worlds. But even more curious is that they'd already have such distinct, seemingly ancient, cultures. You'd think they'd look more like colonists.
 
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might want to revise the title of your thread. As-is, it is right up there with the line at the beginning of THE BLACK HOLE explaining the crew is searching for 'habitable life' like these guys are all suckerfish or tapeworms.

Anyway, wouldn't a human planet have appendages that stuck out and affected its rotation? Or would you be referring to Orson Welles in the animated TRANSFORMERS feature?
 
Norrin Radd:

Combine that with:

The ability of a human woman to produce a child (Spock) with a Vulcan father a few centuries after a group of genetically augmented people (including Khan from "Space Seed" and "Wrath of Khan") instigated a third world war. In Deep Space Nine there was further indication that that Eugenic War resulted in the genetic manipulation of humans being illegal. What are the odds of peoples from two different star systems being able to produce a child without major genetic manipulation? There were also Human/Klingon hybrid characters in TNG (recurring) and Voyager (regular).

While the Enterprise struggled to deflect an asteroid that threatened a world inhabited with people that looked like native Americans and lived in plains "Indian" Tee-pees, an amnesiac Kirk got one of the women pregnant. The asteroid was a threat because an advanced, but very old deflector system malfunctioned. That ancient deflector accomplished in a much shorter time what the Enterprise failed to accomplish after a month of struggle.

I think those are reasons to think some unidentified aliens were transplanting humans around the galaxy.
 
Between the Preservers and the Sargon business and TNG's later stuff from "The Chase," I think the implication is that there was much common ancestry among the "humanoid" (not only that, but you know what I mean...nothing wrong with "hominid")and it formed a base for life forms that were each uniquely adapted to the world they inhabited. So it is possible that many of the aliens have few surface differences from humans, but of course they could be very different in other ways (or not).
 
Yeah, the Preservers, Sargon's race, and those guys from TNG's 'The Chase' sort out that whole 'all aliens look like humans' mess.
 
Between the Preservers and the Sargon business and TNG's later stuff from "The Chase," I think the implication is that there was much common ancestry among the "humanoid" (not only that, but you know what I mean...nothing wrong with "hominid")and it formed a base for life forms that were each uniquely adapted to the world they inhabited. So it is possible that many of the aliens have few surface differences from humans, but of course they could be very different in other ways (or not).
yes, wasnt it kind of implied that they seeded the galaxy with humans?:confused:
 
Between the Preservers and the Sargon business and TNG's later stuff from "The Chase," I think the implication is that there was much common ancestry among the "humanoid" (not only that, but you know what I mean...nothing wrong with "hominid")and it formed a base for life forms that were each uniquely adapted to the world they inhabited. So it is possible that many of the aliens have few surface differences from humans, but of course they could be very different in other ways (or not).
yes, wasnt it kind of implied that they seeded the galaxy with humans?:confused:

They seeded the galaxy with their DNA/descendants, which then evolved into different species over many millenia.
 
The three "seeder" cultures established in Trek all explain different aspects of the humanoid-alien question. The Preservers were meant to explain Earth-duplicate cultures specifically -- although there really aren't that many that they can explain, since the Iotians were the result of 22nd-century contamination, the Platonians chose to emulate Greek culture themselves, the Omegans are some bizarre anomaly that actually duplicated America and Communist China over 10,000 years in the past, etc. Sargon's people were meant to be an ancestor for humanoids in general, perhaps including Vulcans, although Anne Mulhall pointed out that humans evolved on Earth rather than being seeded, making the resemblance coincidental. I've always assumed that Sargon's people were the ancestors of most of the near-human species such as Argelians, Elasians, maybe Bajorans and Risians and other minimal-makeup TNG-era species. The First Humanoids from "The Chase" were meant to explain the predominance of broadly humanoid features in species across the galaxy, even those that are distinctly different from human, such as Cardassians and Klingons and Jem'Hadar, yet still have humanlike eyes, mouths, body shapes, etc. Rather than being a single species that colonized other worlds, they seeded the primordial soup of worlds billions of years ago with programmed DNA sequences encouraged to promote the gradual development of humanoid features, explaining how species that have clearly different evolutionary histories could have converged on the same bodily and facial plans so many times. Keep in mind that this happened 4 billion years ago and that multicellular life didn't arise on Earth until 450 million years ago, with hominids not emerging until 5 million years ago. So the First Humanoids' plan was very, very long-term.

They get confused with each other a lot, but they all operated on different time scales and used different methods. The First Humanoids lived and died 4 billion years ago, before any other intelligence (other than the Q, who are at least 5 billion years old) had arisen in the galaxy, and they seeded DNA programs into worlds with the long-term potential for higher life. Sargon's people lived 600-500,000 years ago and colonized dozens of uninhabited worlds (or may have interbred with humanoids on some worlds). The one confirmed case of Preserver activity was only a few hundred years ago (the Okudachron puts it conjecturally in the 1700s), making the Preservers a modern civilization rather than an ancient one, and all they did was to relocate existing threatened populations to other worlds. (Personally I suspect the Vians from "The Empath" of being the Preservers, since they had the same objectives.)


In response to Norrin Radd's original question, most of the humanlike aliens we saw in TOS were meant to be aliens; they were only human colonists in episodes where they were explicitly established to be human colonists, as in "This Side of Paradise" or "Operation: Annihilate!" for example. Back then, it was very common in SF (mainly in TV/film but even in a lot of prose fiction) for aliens to be assumed to look exactly or almost exactly like humans. (Consider John Carter of Mars, where the Barsoomian races include four-armed giants but also include people like Dejah Thoris, who looks entirely human except for having vivid red skin.)
 
Between the Preservers and the Sargon business and TNG's later stuff from "The Chase," I think the implication is that there was much common ancestry among the "humanoid" (not only that, but you know what I mean...nothing wrong with "hominid")and it formed a base for life forms that were each uniquely adapted to the world they inhabited. So it is possible that many of the aliens have few surface differences from humans, but of course they could be very different in other ways (or not).
yes, wasnt it kind of implied that they seeded the galaxy with humans?:confused:

They seeded the galaxy with their DNA/descendants, which then evolved into different species over many millenia.

Thus giving us the oft talked about "forehead of the week" in TNG.
 
...the Omegans are some bizarre anomaly that actually duplicated America and Communist China over 10,000 years in the past,...

But if the Omegans came first, then America and China are the duplicate cultures! :vulcan: And we plagiarized the Omegan-American Declaration, too. :alienblush:
 
It's all to do with varying timeframes and an uncertain continuity in the early days of TOS. Squire Of Gothos put TOS as far foward as 500 years, and it could have been even further. It was never really narrowed down. In 1996, Khan left Earth on a sleeper ship, and back in the sixties, the implication was that would be a common form of space travel, if not to the stars, then at least within the solar system, and the Valiant went to the edge of the galaxy 200 years before TOS.

It could very well have been the intention that there had been a human diaspora for as much as 400 years before the time frame of TOS, and even when the films narrowed it down to the 23rd Century, the implication was closer to 250 years.

But, the third world war keeps getting moved forward in time, local space turns out to be a more crowded and unfriendly a place, so from TNG onwards, humanity begins to feel like a small cog in a big machine, instead of new kids in a big playground. Instead of sublight travel from the late 20th Century after WWIII, warp drive from the mid 21st, and what could be a mass exodus from Earth to hundreds of vacant worlds. We know have a devastating war, a lengthy reconstruction, and Vulcans telling humans what they can't do. I'm surprised that there are any human colonies at all by the time of TOS, as opposed to the millions living on planets like Deneva.
 
But if the Omegans came first, then America and China are the duplicate cultures! :vulcan: And we plagiarized the Omegan-American Declaration, too. :alienblush:

Personally, I just pretend that the last act of "The Omega Glory" happened differently. The story would've worked perfectly well without the sudden bizarre revelation about the Yangs and Kohms and the duplicate American paraphernalia. It really added nothing to the plot. And I can't think of any way to rationalize it that isn't insanely complicated (like the planet having been settled by American and Chinese refugees who fled WWIII in sleeper ships and fell through a time warp into the distant past). So as far as I'm concerned, there were no duplicates of the American flag and documents, and Kirk just recognized that their ancient text embodied the same basic principles of freedom and made some inspiring speech about the notion, rather than actually quoting the Preamble to the Constitution.


It's all to do with varying timeframes and an uncertain continuity in the early days of TOS. Squire Of Gothos put TOS as far foward as 500 years, and it could have been even further.

Trelane was aware of events as late as the death of Alexander Hamilton, which occurred in 1804; Kirk claimed those events were 900 years in the past. That would suggest a date at least 700 years in our future.

In fact, the waltz Trelane made Uhura play was composed by Johann Strauss in 1880, pushing it potentially even further into the future.

It could very well have been the intention that there had been a human diaspora for as much as 400 years before the time frame of TOS, and even when the films narrowed it down to the 23rd Century, the implication was closer to 250 years.

Except that's not consistent with "Space Seed" saying that Khan left Earth in 1996 and had been travelling for an estimated 200 years. The only "intention" was to be vague about the exact date, which is why they invented the nonsensical stardate system. Several episodes hovered around a 200-year figure, but there was no systematic plan in mind, and they were specifically trying to avoid pinning down the timeframe even in their own minds.
 
But if the Omegans came first, then America and China are the duplicate cultures! :vulcan: And we plagiarized the Omegan-American Declaration, too. :alienblush:

Personally, I just pretend that the last act of "The Omega Glory" happened differently. The story would've worked perfectly well without the sudden bizarre revelation about the Yangs and Kohms and the duplicate American paraphernalia. It really added nothing to the plot. And I can't think of any way to rationalize it that isn't insanely complicated (like the planet having been settled by American and Chinese refugees who fled WWIII in sleeper ships and fell through a time warp into the distant past). So as far as I'm concerned, there were no duplicates of the American flag and documents, and Kirk just recognized that their ancient text embodied the same basic principles of freedom and made some inspiring speech about the notion, rather than actually quoting the Preamble to the Constitution.
Would you deny us our Epleebnesta!!!!? What next? No Brain and Brain? No Bonk bonk? Shame on you sir! Shame on you!
 
So essentially the Preservers were doing the same thing the Federation themselves were doing in Insurrection. But, of course, with more benign intentions.
 
So essentially the Preservers were doing the same thing the Federation themselves were doing in Insurrection. But, of course, with more benign intentions.

Well, who knows about their intentions? The Preservers' idea of "preserving" Miramanee's people was to stick them in the middle of an asteroid field, give them only one defense mechanism (what if an asteroid came in from the other side of the planet?), and gave the instructions for that mechanism to only one person per generation, creating the risk that the knowledge would be lost altogether (as indeed it was). If you ask me, that makes them dangerously incompetent at best. At worst, the whole thing was some heartless experiment.

What always puzzles me is how people read so much into the Preservers. They're always being treated as some incredibly ancient and advanced race with nigh-godlike abilities, and various works of tie-in fiction have attributed them with the creation of everything from the Doomsday Machine to the galactic energy barrier to, I don't know, maybe even life itself. But there's absolutely nothing in "The Paradise Syndrome" that suggests they're anywhere near that ancient or powerful. They would've seeded Miramanee's people only a few centuries in the past, and there was no indication that their technology was any more advanced than what Starfleet has in the TNG era. And as I've said, their methods come off as pretty inept.

I figure it's just that so little was established about them. They're a blank slate, and that lets people's imagination run wild. With nothing solid about how long ago they lived, people default to maximum ancientness. With nothing definitive about their power levels, people default to nigh-godlike. But there's no actual evidence to support any of that.
 
Except that's not consistent with "Space Seed" saying that Khan left Earth in 1996 and had been travelling for an estimated 200 years. The only "intention" was to be vague about the exact date, which is why they invented the nonsensical stardate system. Several episodes hovered around a 200-year figure, but there was no systematic plan in mind, and they were specifically trying to avoid pinning down the timeframe even in their own minds.
This.

As far as human-looking aliens in ST-- I think back in the day Mister Spock seemed pretty alien and exotic to 60s viewers. The freakier and CGIier aliens other aliens start to look, the less alien Spock seems. For the sake of Spock if not for believeability, I don't think we should have a lot of really wild looking aliens in Star Trek. By comparison, Spock looks like a human in rubber ears. Kinda ruins the spirit of his character.
 
It seems that the Enterprise visited practically hundreds of planets where the inhabitants looked human. But were they humans...or aliens that merely looked human? I'm asking because I find it hard to believe that, by the time of Kirk's era, humanity would have stretched so far across the galaxy to the point where they'd exist on so many worlds. But even more curious is that they'd already have such distinct, seemingly ancient, cultures. You'd think they'd look more like colonists.

Flubber.

Not only do they all look human, but they all have mid 20th century cultures and mores, generally. That's just lazy writing, of course, and it's *far* more prevalent in TNG than TOS.

Even on Earth, we have millions of different, unique cultures. The intractability of the Muslim and Christian worlds alone makes each alien to each other. I like it when someone writes a plausible, interesting alien culture. The closest they got on TOS was Vulcans and the Horta.
 
Norrin Radd:

Combine that with:

The ability of a human woman to produce a child (Spock) with a Vulcan father a few centuries after a group of genetically augmented people (including Khan from "Space Seed" and "Wrath of Khan") instigated a third world war. In Deep Space Nine there was further indication that that Eugenic War resulted in the genetic manipulation of humans being illegal. What are the odds of peoples from two different star systems being able to produce a child without major genetic manipulation?

More than that. Even if we assume a Vulcan man can inseminate a human woman, in Spock's case, the resulting child has hemocyanin-based blood but is being oxygenated with his mother's hemoglobin-based blood. A baby can have problems if its mother's blood is the wrong type. I question the survival capacity of a fetus if its mother's blood is the wrong color.:p
 
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