I started watching DS9 in 2008, but I only finished watching the series this past weekend. It took so long because I took breaks from it in the months since I started, and stretched my viewing of seasons 6 and 7 over the past five months. I would have liked to make a thread with my opinions on the episodes as I watched them, but there was already one going on at the time, so I scattered my impressions in various other threads. Now that the other thread has been complete for awhile, I hope I can finally post my thoughts at the end of the series without seeming redundant. I think "What You Leave Behind" is a pretty perfect example of what I've been saying about this series for the last few months - it always seems to be going three steps forward and two steps back. In other words, it teases us with greatness, and then contradicts that greatness with absolute junk. "What You Leave Behind" demonstrates this so well because it truly shows DS9 at its best and its worst. At its best DS9 is exciting, suspenseful, funny, moving, and intelligent. At its worst, it's corny, melodramatic, and contrived. This episode had all of those qualities. I have never been so emotionally affected by an episode as this one, in the best and worst ways. In that scene where Sisko makes a toast to the crew and Vic Fontaine sings "The Way You Look Tonight", I was so happy. I thought to myself, "If they'd just end the episode now, I'd think this is right up there with 'All Good Things...' as one of the best TV finales of all time". But no. They had to give us that disgustingly lame 'showdown' between Sisko and Dukat. A showdown that was like something out of the most laughably hackneyed anime you could imagine. In this scene, Dukat - once one of the most fascinating, multi-faceted characters on the show, was reduced to the worst cliche of a cartoon villain ever. He was a villain with glowing red eyes, laughing maniacally, gloating at his enemy, and throwing energy balls at him. Meanwhile, his enemy (Avery Brooks, going into his signature overly hammy-mode for the last time, unfortunately) bellows at him that he won't get away with this. WTF DS9 writers? Seriously. WTF. Then the stupid Prophets took him into their stupid Prophet world for the last time and the writers didn't even bother explaining to us what that means. He says, "I'll be back, maybe in a year, maybe yesterday." What the hell does that even mean? Again, WTF writers? Too vague. Sisko calls Dukat pathetic. The only thing pathetic in that scene was the writing. How could they go from that lovely party scene to this ridiculous garbage? It's like the Power Rangers getting into their big robot and fighting a big monster against some cardboard buildings in the middle of "Citizen Kane". They couldn't just let Sisko enjoy his party with his friends. They couldn't just give him the chance to raise his new child with his new wife on Bajor after he'd earned that after 7 years of ordeals. No. I guess that would have been too TNG-like...they had to be 'darker' and resolve their stupid Prophets vs. Pah Wraiths storyline. I never liked the Prophets. From the first episode, I thought they were lame and annoying, and as the show progressed and their role became more significant, I was opposed to them every step of the way. No matter what, I could not see them as anything but a waste of time. They are the very definition of deus ex machina, no matter what the writers say. My one friend who knows DS9 and some people here kept assuring me not to worry...that the Prophets/Sisko storyline will get better and pay off nicely in the end. Now that I've seen the payoff, I'm more against the concept than ever. The payoff only confirmed what I always believed, which is that the Prophets dragged the series down every time they appeared, and as far I'm concerned their worst offense was tainting the finale. But a funny thing happened. I was outraged by the Dukat/Winn/Sisko/Pah Wraiths/Prophets scenes and then they did those montages of all the special moments between characters (in pairs) and I was reduced to tears of joy! The montage was so awesomely touching that I didn't even care that my favourite character (Jadzia) wasn't in it. What a schizophrenic show this is! It's so schizophrenic that it made me act that way watching it...I went from absolute disdain to euphoric happiness in a matter of minutes. That's DS9 for you. It can be so beautiful and so ugly at the same time. So deep and so shallow. So I started re-evaluating my judgment of the final two episodes. I guess there is some justification for Sisko's fate, as it did make the scenes in the Jake montage more powerful (especially the clip from "The Visitor"). I think overall the season finale and the series were excellent, it's just unfortunate that certain characters and storylines were horrible ideas, and the writers were misguided enough to insist on these storylines and characters being a MAJOR part of so many episodes, including the final two. Take out all the Kai Winn, Dukat, Prophets, and Pah Wraiths stuff, and "What You Leave Behind" would be a masterpiece. I'm not just biased because they killed off Sisko, a character I love. I became a big fan of Damar during 'the final chapter' episodes too, but his death didn't bother me in the same way. I mean, I was sorry to see him go, but at the same time, I appreciate that his death seemed natural, necessary, and had weight to it. Sisko's pissed me off because it was just the writers' way of tying up the loose ends of a storyline they should never have bothered with in the first place. Okay, enough complaints...now what I loved about the series finale and how it built on what came before - It took me a long time to appreciate Cardassians as much as so many people in this forum do, but "What You Leave Behind" really sealed the deal for me. The Cardassians showed layers I'd never seen before when they turned on The Dominion and I wanted to cheer right along with them when they yelled "for Cardassia!" as they went into battle. Meanwhile, Kira really blossomed into an incredibly likable and sympathetic character from the shrill wretch she was in the first two seasons. Garak's lament about the losses of the Cardassians was a wonderfully subtle bit of acting. Imagine Avery Brooks doing a scene like that, I bet he would have contorted his face and raised his voice inappropriately to convey his sorrow. Garak, on the other hand, was understated. You could really feel his grief, without him having to oversell it. Throughout the series, Garak (and Andrew J. Robinson, by extension) often seemed too smug and mannered to me, but this was one of those scenes that justified all the support for the character and actor here (in my eyes). Don't get me wrong, I like Brooks, but when it came to big dramatic moments, I think he tended to overexert himself. Odo's arc in the last episode was also well-handled...saddening, but understandable, and inevitable. I just wish he had said something to Quark. Even if it would have been out-of-character, Quark deserved better! But I like how all of the characters were left (other than Sisko). It was good to see Bashir and Ezri happy together at last. Worf, Kira, and O'Brien's promotions all made sense as the next natural course for them in their lives and added some nice poignancy to the last episode. I love Weyoun, so I hated seeing him die, but he totally asked for it with what he said to Garak. I couldn't believe the female shapeshifter went all power mad dictator at the end, choking out her Cardassian liason and ordering the genocide of Cardassia! I didn't know she had it in her! I really wanted to see her get killed off too, but Odo playing peacemaker with her was an acceptable alternative and her signing the treaty was a cool moment. I love DS9 now...I just think it was too ambitious for its own good sometimes. With so many characters and arcs, they just couldn't all work. Some were spot-on, some were terribly-conceived, and they all blended together to make the seasons and episodes maddeningly uneven. One minute I'd be cheering, laughing, or on the verge of happy tears, and the next I'd want to roll my eyes, or groan in pain. This tended to be my reaction when they cut to Winn/Dukat scenes in the 'final chapter'...they were truly the 'albatross' of this mostly strong string of episodes. Taking all that into account, it's hard to decide which series I like more between DS9 and TNG. I know TNG never made me so frustrated with inconsistency (on an episode-by-episode basis, I think it tended to consist of entire episodes that either suck or are great, rather than episodes that are great in some parts and awful in others), but the variety of interesting characters, story lines, and ideas of DS9 is unprecedented and far beyond what TNG has achieved. In any event, despite my complaints, now that I've finished watching DS9 all the way through (save for a few episodes in seasons 6 and 7) for the first time, I'm very glad that I did. Overall, it was definitely one of the best times I've had watching the entire run of a show, even with the bad plots and episodes therein. I want to thank everyone here for enhancing the experience with their feedback to my questions and comments along the way. I'm sure I would not have enjoyed watching the series as much as I did without so many people here being willing to engage in discussions with me about it. Whether we were agreeing or arguing, I enjoyed every minute of it. Since I started posting here, I've been telling my friends that I think Star Trek fans are the nicest people on the Internet because this is the only message board I've been to where people have disagreed with me politely, without resorting to name-calling. A toast to the best forum a message board geek ever posted in. I watched some of my favourite old episodes again before the finale just to get more 'hyped' for it and after doing that and then getting to the end of season 7, I'm ready to declare a final top 5. When you look at my top 5, you'll see how unlike a lot of people here, I favoured more 'standalone' and 'genre-bending' episodes. I wasn't so keen on a lot of the political and religious arcs of the series, so I tended to get stoked for stuff like 'the Star Trek crossover', 'the wedding episode', 'the night club episode', and 'the baseball episode'. I think it shows that I liked DS9 best when it did new types of episodes. I believe that's the real triumph of this show. Not its ruminations on religion, politics, or terrorism, but its ability to take Star Trek into genres no Star Trek series had ever taken it into before, and integrate them into the Star Trek universe with surprising ease: 1. "Trials and Tribble-ations" (Season 5, Episode 6) 2. "To the Death" (Season 4, Episode 23) 3. "You Are Cordially Invited..." (Season 6, Episode 7) 4. "His Way" (Season 6, Episode 20) 5. "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" (Season 7, Episode 4) "Honourable mentions" to "Blood Oath" and "Whispers" Please feel free to comment on any of my reflections on the series/series finale or top 5 choices here. I originally thought maybe my days of posting about DS9 here would be over once I finished watching the series, but I'm so addicted to this place now that there's no way that's going to happen. Therefore, this won't be the last time we're all together.
I agree with a lot of what you said. Indeed Dukat/Winn/wormhole aliens/Sisko storylines got fubared, big-time. No question about it. These were all horrible mistakes. I wouldn't call WYLB a masterpiece without those fubars though. WYLB has a huge laundry list of problems aside from that. Most notably, the Founder surrendering makes no sense whatsoever. I don't buy the common argument that 'she had to surrender to save the great link', because Odo by his very nature would have to cure them regardless because it is the only just thing to do, and Odo has a lifelong committment to justice. It's also a major fubar that Odo obeyed Sisko's corrupt order not to cure the genocide in the first place. WYLB was way too rushed, and hackneyed regarding the Dominion War. The Dominion should have won the War. I also love Weyoun and was very sad to see him go. I don't buy that they had no way to clone him any more and I consider that another fubar of WYLB. Plus, his lines in his final scene were atypically predictable and generic; I guess they dumbed him down in that scene for the sake of time, but it's very noticeable and aggravating to me. The montages in WYLB always peeved me off because they don't include great secondary characters who should have been included like Weyoun, Garak, Dukat, Winn etc. etc. I could see how His Way and Take Me Out to the Holosuite may be in a top 5, because they are what DS9 does best: character studies. I would never put T&T or You Are Cordially Invited on my top 5 because they are silly filler with no meaning to them. To The Death, whilst a great episode, is too much action and not enough of a character study to warrant top 5 status IMO. My top 5 would look something like this: 1. In the Pale Moonlight 2. Treachery, Faith and the Great River 3. The Wire 4. His Way 5. Rock and Shoals ...although DS9 has dozens of masterpiece episodes, so narrowing it down to a definitive 5 isn't possible IMO. I agree that the real triumph of the show was when it wasn't dealing with terrorism or Bajoran issues or politics (exception: when they are entwined with character study, like in ITPM), but I don't agree the triumph was in meaningless filler episodes. I say the triumph is the brilliant character studies that DS9 had the fortitude to do which none of the other Trek shows did.
I guess to each his own. I loved the larger arc (including the Bajoran politics and religion, Sisko as Emissary, the ongoing commentary on terrorism LONG before 9/11, etc.) much more than the filler episodes you seemed to enjoy most. To me, the arc is what makes DS9 different (and better) than other Trek shows. Not one of your top 5 episodes (or even your top 7, if you include honorable mentions) is in my top 25 episodes, and one of your top picks (His Way) is probably in my bottom 5 episodes in all of DS9. In fact, the only one of those on your list that I think is a really great episode is Trials and Tribble-ations, and that is only because of the cool way they wrote in TOS - not because of any great storyline in and of itself. And even that one would not make my top 25. Maybe my top 30. My favorite episodes are all arc-based, pretty much, with the exception of The Visitor. Here are my top episodes (and I'll include my top 15 or so, just to illustrate how vastly different our lists really are): 1. In the Pale Moonlight 2. Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast 3. The Visitor 4. Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels 5. What You Leave Behind 6. The Siege of AR-558 7. The Wire 8. For the Uniform 9. Doctor Bashir, I Presume 10. The Changing Face of Evil 11. It's Only a Paper Moon 12. Duet 13. In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light 14. Treachery, Faith and the Great River 15. Waltz Others I really love (in rough chronological order): In the Hands of the Prophets, The Collaborator, The Adversary, Little Green Men, Things Past, Rapture, In the Cards, Call to Arms, Statistical Probabilities, The Magnificent Ferengi, Inquisition, The Sound of Her Voice, Badda-Bing Badda-Bang, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, When It Rains..., Tacking Into the Wind. And let's not forget my two favorite 'chick episodes' : Resurrection (love bad-boy Bareil, even if the episode is only mediocre), and Chrysalis. I like these, more than likely, for much the same reasons that many of the guys around here love His Way, an episode which I utterly DETEST beyond description and think is bordering on outright creepy and gross (an opinion, by the way, which is shared by Nana Visitor) . Like I said - our lists are very likely nothing alike at all.
Thanks for the feedback, guys. Very interesting so far. I actually meant to say this too, and I do believe that the episodes in my top 5 which you and PKTrekGirl dismissed as filler do work for their character moments too. I believe I like them for the way they handle characters as much as I like them for their genre-bending quality. I appreciated the way "You Are Cordially Invited..." explored the characters of Jadzia and Worf and how they were right for each other despite their differences. I love the way "Trials and Tribble-ations" showed Jadzia's enthusiasm for the past, Sisko's respect for Kirk, Bashir's over-analytical mind and O'Brien's sense of humour (in the turbolift scene), and I think "To the Death" is filled with great character moments, like the conversation between Weyoun and Odo, or Jadzia and the Jem'Hadar soldier. I agree it's a shame that they couldn't do montages for more characters (Jadzia as well as the characters you mentioned), but to be fair, it wouldn't make as much sense narratively as the ones we did see made. I guess that's the result of, as you said, the episodes being a little rushed. And PkTrekGirl, even though you disagree with my choices and have such different episodes in your top list, I agree with a lot of your choices, actually. I think "In the Pale Moonlight" is a very overrated episode, but I also believe much of it is riveting, especially the last bit, which I think concludes with one of the best endings in all of DS9 (Garak's master plan is so, so awesome). I like "The Visitor" and those two parters you mentioned a lot as well, but as you can see from my list, I have a bias towards 'lighter' episodes. Still, DS9 wouldn't be as terrific as it often was without those intense arc-related episodes too.
You think it's overrated yet you still give it high praise and admit it's awesome. How come you find it overrated? I find Duet and The Visitor and T&T and WYLB to be overrated but IMO ITPM and FBTS are the universally-acclaimed episodes that fully deserve their great ratings.
"Far Beyond the Stars" and "In the Pale Moonlight" are the two episodes that I find most overrated because they seem to be the mostly universally praised episodes even though I have major problems with both. What bugs me most about them is the overreacting, which is a big subject of debate here, since a lot of people here seem to think Avery Brooks' dramatic moments in them are effective, while I find them way too over-the-top and think they bring down the episodes, which are otherwise good. "In the Pale Moonlight" has a great plot twist in the end when it's revealed what Garak did, but I found the events leading up to that to be a bit of a slog. Sisko's constant monologuing with 'intense' Avery Brooks overacting annoyed me, and I didn't really find the preparations for the forgery very interesting. I only perked up when Vreenak showed up (very intriguing character) and right at the end when Garak's plan came to fruition. It's the same with "Duet" and what I said about the series overall...some really excellent performances and scenes in the middle of a lot of crap. I liked Harris Yulin's scenes and performance in that episode and thought the ending was cool, but the rest? YAWN. I think "Far Beyond the Stars" mostly works, but I just hate Benny's nervous breakdown so, so much. I think it's one of the worst scenes in the whole series and ruins the episode completely. In a contrast, I thought "The Visitor" and "Trials and Tribble-ations" were perfect in how they never faltered in telling their stories. There are always extremes that cause stories to fail. Sad stories/dramas can get too melodramatic and comedies can get too silly. I think "The Visitor" managed to tell a very emotional story without ever getting too cheesy and maudlin, and "Trials and Tribble-ations" was able to tell a comedic story without ever getting too ridiculous. I found the dialogue and character interactions clever and delightful from start to finish. It maintained its fun vibe without ever devolving into camp or absurdity.
What exactly is "crap" or "yawn" about Duet? I can't think of anything in that episode that would remotely qualify as such.
Mostly just Kira going around bitching. It's a big reason I couldn't stand that character in the first two seasons. I really hated her until she started lighting up at about the time when she and Sisko started bonding in "Starship Down". So much of the episode was her going around whining about Cardassians and the Bajoran occupation and I just loathed that stuff. And I didn't find think there was a lot of intrigue in everyone trying to solve the mystery of who the guy really was. I got weary of the build-up and just wished they'd get it over with. The great ending almost saved it. As I said in a thread about "Duet", I think it was like "Silence of the Lambs" if all the scenes other than the Hannibal Lector ones were boring. For the first two seasons, I just couldn't get into any episodes with Kira as the protagonist because she was so shrill and preachy. I didn't care about any of the characters in "Duet". The Cardassian was entertaining in his maniacal raving, but I couldn't really sympathize with him until the very end when his true nature was revealed, so the whole episode I was just enjoying how over-the-top he was, but little else. I found the episode very dull except for when Kira would visit him. Maybe calling it 'crap' is too harsh...I just mean it didn't interest me.
To go on a little side topic about 'Best Episodes', I have to put 'Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast' & 'The Wire' (The Wire does work well as a intro for the double as well) as my favourite episodes of any Star Trek. But I may be biased since Garak is my favourite character in the franchise. You can basically pick out all his episodes and you'll notice he appears in almost all the major story episodes of the series (minus a few like Search Pt 1, Maquis, Apocalypse Rising, etc) and is also a catalyst for a lot of the developments in the War (Die Is Cast, ITPM). I watched 'His Way' last night for the first time since I originally watched the series as I remembered it as a boring love story. But I was surprised that it's actually quite a nice little episode (If you don't mind a bit of swing). Also soon, I've decided to continue with the DS9 Book relaunch
Fair enough. I guess our choices are always influenced by who are favorite characters are and what our favourite themes in the show are. I was indifferent to Jadzia in the first couple of seasons and only warmed up to her after a while, but Kira has always been my favorite. I was always interested in the occupation story, and enjoyed every episode that focused on the past through flashbacks, or its consequences i.e. relations between Cardassias and Bajorans. This was mostly was hooked me on the show in the first place, and in fact "Duet" was the episode that really got me hooked (and I should also add that since DS9 was really the first Star Trek I trully loved - although not the first I saw, I watched season 1 of TNG on TV as a kid - it really was what hooked me on Trek, too).
^ Agreed that favorite characters influence our favorite episodes - and I'd take it one step further and state that favorite episodes influence who our favorite characters are too. My favorite regular DS9 characters are Sisko, Kira, Bashir, and O'Brien, and my favorite recurring characters are Garak, Damar, Dukat, Martok, and Weyoun. And pretty much every episode in my list of favorites above contains a large piece of character development for one or more of these characters and/or some key developments in the relationships between them. In contrast, while I don't really dislike any regular or recurring characters (with the possible exception of Keiko O'Brien), I'm not a huge fan of Odo, I will admit (mostly because of his actions, or lack thereof, during the Occupation arc), nor am I a huge fan of stick-up-his-ass Worf (his sole redeeming quality being the fact that his presence gave the writers a springboard into the character who is IMO the best Klingon in Trek - Martok! )...and looking at my list of favorite episodes, I believe these lesser preferences are pretty well reflected as well. It's pretty much a chicken/egg thing though. I suppose early episodes developed my taste for certain characters...but still, I'm not the sort of person who sticks with a lame character - they have to keep earning my interest. And the above characters continued to do that, in spades!
^This is what I've been finding as I'm rewatching the series and getting into some episodes I've only seen once (and soon will be getting into ones I haven't seen before). I'm in Season 5, just watched "The Darkness and the Light" and I'm finding it uneven also. As much as I'm enjoying it I'm sort of dreading watching seasons 6 and 7 (of which I haven't seen all the episodes). I have such memories of DS9 being so good I'm surprised by some of the less good ones or the few bad ones. I'm not looking forward into getting into the Pah-wraith episodes as I just saw "The Assignment" and I have the feeling it was the best of the them from what I remember. Just wait until I get into the ones with Vic- then I will be on here griping. *grrr* Also just saw "The Begotten" and I think that episode came way too soon. What was the point of making Odo human for eleven episodes? The only storyline that really impacted him was "The Ascent." There was no exploration of him being human or of him coming to terms with it- I feel like it was just a wasted opportunity. I don't recall his character in future episodes really being changed by the experience either nor did it change his relationship with any of the other characters. I just find DS9 kind of frustrating in a way. Plus I think I'm irked because I only have two and a half seasons left *and* I know it is going to feel rushed *and* I don't want it to be over.
Speaking as a non-chick, Evil Bareil is much more fun than Vedek Bareil. My question for you, though, is what your source is for Visitor's opinion. I'd like to believe that's true - it'd kinda vindicate me if one of the actors shared our passionate hatred for "His Way" - but it's just the first time I've ever heard anyone mention such a thing.
Well I know Nana Visitor was against the idea of Odo and Kira becoming a couple. She says in interviews on the DVD extras that she thought they should just stay friends and she was very vocal to the writers in expressing how much she disapproved of the pairing. I've never heard her complain about exactly how the coupling took place in "His Way", so I'm not sure if she was just opposed to the idea of them getting together or disapproved of both that as well as how the episode putting them together was conceived. And I can't deny I have a huge bias about favourite episodes based on favourite characters. Jadzia Dax being my favourite character was a big influence on "Trials and Tribble-ations", "You Are Cordially Invited...", and "To the Death" becoming some of my favourites, because I think the most endearing qualities of her personality really shine through in those ones.
The story I get is that she initially resisted the idea, but was able to be persuaded after having a similar friendship-turned-romance in real life with Mr. Alexander Siddig El Fadil. But I was asking about the thing that you just said you haven't heard anything about either - thoughts about "His Way" in particular rather than the pairing in general.
In this article she is quoted saying that she didn't think Kira and Odo should get together, but in the end she liked the way the relationship was handled. "His Way" is not mentioned, though. http://www.articlearchives.com/science-technology/experimentation-research-aerospace/354822-1.html