Vulcans and lying

After thinking about it, I think what spock meant in the 'Courtmarshel' was that Vulcans were incapable of fooling the computers by lying, whether that is true or not. But I'd like to see Vulcans actually be literally incapable of lying. I think that would be more interesting but which was negated in 'Enterprise' and not just have a reputation for truthfulness. I'd like to see a poll.

 

Well I'll be damned, the 27th already.

 

Vulcans lie like a rug. This is just more of their green-blooded horseshit, like the "we don't have emotions" routine.

 

Huh?! Did someone say green blood?

 

Vulcans lie. Spock lied to the Female Romulan Commander and created a big scandal when she discovered he can lie even though he's a Vulcan.

Then Spock further lied by saying that Vulcans can't lie in other episodes, and in Star Trek IV. Seems perhaps good ol' Spock was a compulsive liar even.

 

Vulcans cannot lie, unless under orders to lie? Vulcans lied in both TOS and Enterprise.

 

Well Spock is only half Vulcan.

 

Which has nothing to do with it, unless you think lying is some how tied to biology?

Lying, under the right circumstances can indeed be "logical" not all of them honorable or peaceful.

Sharr

 

NEVER telling lies is illogical. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few gives a logical context to allow for telling lies.

Vulcans also at times take a question asked of them literally. In Enterprise T'Pol is working on a control panel, a little girl comes and hides near her and tells her not to tell anyone. Then another comes by and asks T'Pol if she has seen Amy (I don't remember the girls name but i like the name "Amy"). T'Pol tells the girl that she has seen no girl named Amy. A lie? Yes. But it is also the truth, the hiding girl never mentioned her name, so T'Pol can truthfully say she has never seen a girl named Amy.

So yes, Vulcans can, and do, lie.

 

If a Vulcan said "I am lying." Is he?

 

xortex... let's say that you've just asked your original question, and that no one has yet posted all of the good answers, above. Doesn't something nag at you in the back of your mind, when you ask "Are Vulcans incapable of lying?" I mean... what would stop them? What specifically could literally make it impossible? If a Vulcan were to decide he had to lie to save someone's life, would he open his mouth and the words wouldn't come, no matter how hard he tried? How could that happen?

Vulcans are people. Vulcans aren't robots that can be programmed against doing certain things. They aren't magical beings following magical rules, or spells. This is SF, so things are supposed to make sense.

Come to think of it, a legitmate science-fiction premise for a story might be that someone has invented a way to program people like computers, buit I only thought of that this second...

 

Exactly, which is why I always laugh when people try to hold him up as a shining example of the average Vulcan. Same as when people try to hold Worf up as the average Klingon. BOTH characters were overcompensating for something they felt they lacked.

 

He doesn't say anything about Vulcans not lying in ``Court-Martial''. The most he does is claim he doesn't speculate when he attests to details of an event which he did not witness.

The idea that Vulcans Can't Lie is pretty well negated by the fact that every time, from The Original Series on, that it was established as a plot point that Vulcans Can't Lie it was to further the credibility of a lie a Vulcan was telling.

 

Under the right circumstances as you yourself have pointed out it can be. Logic is amoral therefore honor is beside the point where it comes into play. A truly logical race would be a dangerous ally never mind enemy.

One can also lie by omission, all one needs to do is look and see the Earth-Romulan War to know the Vulcans (there government... which I somehow doubt is no less cagy then any other) likely held back what they must have suspected.

Sharr

 

Didn't Tuvok point out that he can lie when he is being "true to his own convictions". Such as when he went undercover as a Maquis.

 

The thing is, if I recall, is that Spock was the exception to the "Vulcan's don't lie" thing. He liked to say he was exaggerating, etc. But these are excuses.

In TOS Vulcan's were solidly committed to their spiritual views, including not telling a lie. It's later Treks, throwing Vulcans into all sorts of roles (like Tuvok's spying) that destroy any of Spock's claims. However, I was intrigued at the post suggesting Spock was "over compensating" culturally, romanticizing his culture you might say, rather like Worf seem too.

Vulcan's serving in Star Fleet might, I suggest, be in conflict with their cultural norm.

 

Spock was half human.

 

The ability to lie is a function of consciousness, part of what's usually called the "ego."

 

How do you figure? I'd call T'Pring's fucking around pretty fucking deceitful.