Re: Improvements The Constellation could very well have been one of the pathfinder ships of what was to become the Constitution class (along with the Republic, NCC-1371). Both of these ships could have been refit to the Constitution class's final specifications (with the Republic most likely becoming a starship training vessel for the academy). Further, for those who have problems with numbers not being in order, the space shuttles must be very maddening for you guys. You have Enterprise (OV-101), Columbia (OV-102), Challenger (OV-99), Discovery (OV-103), Atlantis (OV-104) and Endeavour (OV-105). I mean, really... before we jump on Starfleet (and Star Trek producers) about their inability to get their numbers in order, maybe we should have NASA rewrite history and renumber the shuttles. The other thing that many people over look when looking at the Constellation is that this wasn't just another starship... this was a flag ship (one of only two that we know of in TOS, the other being the Lexington). It wasn't commanded by another captain, it was commanded by a commodore (a flag officer). The point that the Constellation was to play in the story of The Doomsday Machine was that this was a more than equal (that is, better) ship than the Enterprise, with a more experienced crew and a more experienced commanding officer. By setting the Constellation up in this way, we were to already have (as an audience) an understanding of how powerful (and dangerous) the planet killer was before we had even seen it on screen. And anyone who thinks that lower numbers mean weaker (and less advanced) ships seem to be ignoring history. Beyond the sited example of the Challenger (which while being numbered 99 was still more advanced than both the Enterprise and Columbia), I'd point out that the US Navy retired the America (CV-66) before the Enterprise (CVN-65), Constellation (CV-64), Kitty Hawk (CV-63) and Independence (CV-62). And even this month they are retiring the Kennedy (CV-67) before both the Enterprise and Kitty Hawk. You can't make any judgment about the qualifications or abilities of the Constellation based on her hull number... it doesn't work in NASA or the US Navy, and it sure doesn't work in Starfleet either.
Re: Improvements Well, the one example from about the Enterprise Class Shuttles was a good one, but the Constellation, herself, was a mixture of older Constitution parts. Like I said, the Cage version and the Where No Man Has Gone Before version. Which I would theorize that the Constellation was an older version of the Constitution Class. Like you said, a pathfinder vessel. Besides, the Enterprise OV-101 was never meant to fly into space, and the Challenger's modification was based on how to improve the space shuttle from the Columbia's missions. Yet, regarding the USS America, the America was decommissioned because of three things, budget cuts and major equipment failure just before the proposed SLEP refit, and the commissioning of the brand-new USS Harry S. Truman. For the most part, the registry numbers are chronological by at least TNG's time, but upon looking at TOS's time, it can be inferred that they were chronological as well.
Re: Improvements From what source are you getting this idea that Constellation was a mixture of older Constitution parts? She may have started life as a pathfinder vessel, but by the TOS era, she was anything but a collection of old parts. Far more importantly, why would Starfleet put such a vessel into a flag ship role? What would be in the minds of Starfleet command when deciding which starship to give to a commodore? Let me ask you this... lets say that you are Starfleet command. You have two commodores and ten captains, and twelve ships. The ships commanded by the commodores are going to serve as your flag ships (seeing as they will be commanded by flag officers). Which two ships (based on their performance abilities... from most advanced to least advanced) of the twelve would you assign to your two commodores? I would give my commodores the two best ships in the fleet. Based on that logic, Constellation and Lexington would be the most advanced ships of their type during the TOS era. By the same logic, what ship would you give your least experienced captain? Kirk was both one of the youngest ever commanding officers, and at the time he took command of the Enterprise, the commanding officer with the least experience. Which ship (based on their performance abilities... from most advanced to least advanced) of the twelve would you assign to your youngest and least experienced captain? So by this logic, not only would the Constellation (at the time of the Doomsday Machine episode) be one of the two most advanced ships of her type, the Enterprise was most likely in the bottom half of the twelve during the TOS era. Think about it... the Enterprise didn't become the Enterprise of wide fame until the completion of her five year mission under Kirk. By that time, Constellation, Intrepid and Defiant were lost, Exeter started over with a new crew, Lexington and Excalibur were heavily damaged. If she started out in the bottom six ships when Kirk took command, there was a good chance she was one of the top six ships remaining at the end of her five year mission. Enterprise was originally scheduled to be disassembled and made space worthy. The decision to not follow through on this plan was made in 1978. So at one time it was meant to fly into space. Challengers modifications were based on testing done directly on Challenger herself... as STA-99 she underwent almost a year of intensive vibration testing in 1978, those test showed that the original structural design used in Enterprise and Columbia was overkill. STA-99 was modified to reflect these findings which amounted to a massive weight savings over Enterprise and Columbia. Assembly of Challenger as OV-99 started at the beginning of 1979. Columbia's first flight was in April of 1981, Challenger's final assembly was started about 5 months earlier. Challenger gained very little (if anything) from the Columbia missions (of which, there was only one between the beginning and ending of final vehicle assembly of Challenger). Challenger served as the structural template for all later shuttles. The main advances that were learned (and applied) from the early Columbia flights was in the thermal insolation. The tiling pattern of later shuttles reflected the fact that areas that were once thought to need more insolation actually could have less (the black tiled areas of Columbia are far more extensive than any of the other shuttles... see here).
Re: Improvements I like the logic here, and I agree with you to a point. The only problem that I see is that commands (in this day and age, and I would assume in the 23rd century as well) aren't assigned all at once. Each person would be given a command as one becomes available. The commodores might request a transfer once a newer ship is available, but I think it would be unlikely since they would have a new crew to deal with, plus I would imagine Starfleet would frown on people hopping about like that.
Re: Improvements The problem is that newer can't be held as equivalent to most advanced or best condition when looking at a series of ships that are all between 15 to 30 years old. The oldest of these ships could have been refitted with the same technology as the newest... infact the oldest could have been scheduled to be refit with newer technology than the newest of them. Beyond that the story was written for the Constellation to be (as I said earlier) more than equal to the Enterprise, and that the model builders were most likely given the one instruction that the hull number of the Constellation should be earlier than that of the Enterprise (with only "1", "7", "0" and "1" to work with off the original AMT kit's decal sheet, how many numbers can you come up with that are before "1701"?). Plus it was already understood that all these ships were pretty old by this time. If most of these ships were built between 2240 and 2250... with Constellation and Republic possibly being built around 2235... most of these vessels would have been pretty close to equal footing by the mid 2260s after a number of upgrades and modifications. We know command assignments are 5 years long. More importantly, I'd be willing to bet that Starfleet breaks up crews regularly to spread experienced crew personnel around the fleet to off set green crew members fresh from the academy. Commanders of ships may be able to request key personnel to stay with them or with the ship (Spock seems to have spend his whole career onboard the Enterprise rising through the ranks from academy trainee to finally captain of the Enterprise) but that seems to be more the exception than the rule (Kirk was on the Republic and Farragut before getting command of the Enterprise). If most of the duty assignments are given out around the same time (that is, most five year missions are assigned within a year or so of each other), odds are that Decker, Wesley and Kirk were all being assigned ships around the same time... and that Decker and Wesley would have been assigned the best ships available. They were given the Constellation and Lexington while Kirk was given the Enterprise. And while commanders staying with their original ships for a second 5 year mission might not be out of place (Pike stayed with Enterprise for two 5 year missions), when being promoted to the rank of commodore I would imagine that Starfleet command would have a little more to say about which ship they end up with as their duties would have changed in that role. Flag officers aren't just commanding their own ships, they are often charged with assuming command of a number of ships in tactical situations (like Wesley's attack group during the M-5 tests). The key point though is that by the 2260s... newer is no longer equivalent to better when it comes to these starships. None of these ships are most likely still in their original configuration. Even with our Navy today, the Kennedy is newer than both the Enterprise and Kitty Hawk (as was the America), but the ships that are in the best shape are the ones that continue to stay in service. If our Navy only thought in terms of newer as better... both America (66) and Kennedy (67) would be in service today while Kitty Hawk (63) and Enterprise (65) would have been given retirement. Once the idea of newer as better (a mindset that is sadly prevalent with our consumer culture today) is overcome, the understanding that better is better starts to make more sense. And this is the main point that I've been trying to make... better is better, newer isn't always better. Another thing to keep in mind while watching Doomsday Machine is that while we all know Decker has been deeply and emotionally effected by the loss of his crew, he still sees himself as being the flag officer in the situation. Him transferring his command to the Enterprise and assuming tactical command of the Enterprise and Constellation (once she was able to maneuver and fight again) would have seemed perfectly natural to him.
Re: Improvements Oh sure, go off on one word there. I agree that new doesn't equate to most advanced or best condition (poor choice of words on my part), but insert any of those phrases there and the point still stands that they won't usually all get assigned at the same time. Like you said, "Decker and Wesley would have been assigned the best ships available", which isn't always the newest, most advanced, best, etc.
Re: Improvements Guys, what does Decker's Constellation have to do with this? I'm as fond of treknological explanations as the next guy, but I fail to see the connection (apart from the name) ...
Re: Improvements To be fair, I wasn't actually going after you about the use of "newer"... it seems to be used quite a bit to argue that hull numbers can tell which ship is better when making comparisons. Oh sure, go off on one word there. Well this could potentially be very important! Unless this is straightened out, the models of previous Constellations in the Captain's readyroom could be completely inaccurate. We wouldn't want that. :thumbsup:
Re: Improvements You can visually see that the Constellation is not the same as the Enterprise. The nacelles were larger. The bridge was different. The secondary hull was different externally with less windows. The nav dish was larger. The impulse engine housing was quite bigger. The shuttlebay doors were smaller. The reason was because of a mixture of two Enterprise models.
Re: Improvements You are kidding... right? The original Constellation is not a mixture of two models... it is a single model, which you can buy for yourself if you want. It was the original 1967 AMT model kit of the Starship Enterprise. History Here Model can be bought Here This was production television and the effects people were most likely only given a few days in which to build all the additional miniatures for the episode (which was the reason they didn't have time to hunt down decal numbers/letters to make the Constellation's hull number something other than a variant of "NCC-1701"). Did you really think that they built a model of the Constellation from scratch trying to make it different in some way? Here are some nice images of the original Constellation if you still don't believe me.
Re: Improvements Life got in the way, that's what happened. However, I'm working on it again and hope to have something update-worthy soon(ish).
Re: Improvements hello sorry just doing my part to keep this thread alive and someone let me know if im not allowed to
Re: Improvements ^^^ Eh, not really supposed to... We can use bookmarks and the search function to keep the thread alive. And the thread will always be alive in our hearts.
Re: Improvements There's no need for life support. Yet. Here's something I've been working on recently. Using the approach that worked very well with the cargo container (I believe I posted that here as well), I think I've finally come up with a bridge layout I can be satisfied with. There is a certain degree of guesstimation involved, but it's based on solid data, and it seems to work. I need to figure a few things out, but I should be making swift progress. Once I'm finished, I can post an explanation of how I arrived at certain measurements and angles, for those who are interested.
Re: Improvements It's not mine, but thanks anyway. This is the modified battle bridge set that became the Stargazer bridge that became the courtroom in "Measure of a Man" that became the lab in "Pen Pals" that became the bridge of the Hathaway ... To top it all off, it's a modification of the bridge set used until The Search for Spock, which is how I got most of the measurements.