The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

[William Leisner]

Mach5 wrote:

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BTW, I don't suggest that Vulcans should have assassinated their own leader, but what stopped Section 31 from doing it?

Maybe the fact that the other most powerful political faction on Vulcan is the same one that bombed the Earth embassy a year earlier.

[Mach5]

William Leisner wrote:

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Maybe the fact that the other most powerful political faction on Vulcan is the same one that bombed the Earth embassy a year earlier.

I was under the impression that this faction was gone for good. Also, wouldn't Kuvak automatically succeed T'Pau?

[JD]

Stephen! wrote:

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Perhaps the Section 31 of this era, is somewhat more "restrained" compared to Section 31 of the later centuries.

Based on what we've seen of the 22nd century S31, that actually does seem to be the case. I'm pretty that the show's producers/writers have even said that in interviews about the Klingon eps.

[JB2005]

JD wrote:

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Based on what we've seen of the 22nd century S31, that actually does seem to be the case. I'm pretty that the show's producers/writers have even said that in interviews about the Klingon eps.

It seemed to me that this was a view of S31 with its original intents - an autonomous agency which provided covert defence of Earth and Starfleet...

[Mach5]

JB2005 wrote:

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It seemed to me that this was a view of S31 with its original intents - an autonomous agency which provided covert defence of Earth and Starfleet...

I find it somewhat naive to think that any secret agency can continuously provide a successful covert defense for anyone without occasionally "removing an obstacle."

And what better time for Section 31 to [de]volve into a familiar unscrupulous organization seen in DS9, than during humanity's most desperate hour?

[William Leisner]

Mach5 wrote:

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I was under the impression that this faction was gone for good. Also, wouldn't Kuvak automatically succeed T'Pau?

It's never a good idea to assume extremists are ever gone for good.

I have no idea if Kuvak would succeed T'Pau or not -- and since it was T'Pau, rather than Kuvak, who ended up succeeding V'Las, I don't think we can make any assumptions about how the Vulcan government determines such things. And even if Kuvak did end up in control... who's to say how close his government would adhere to T'Pau's philosophies, or how far back he would swing to his earlier political leanings? (And I say this not yet having read TRW or having any idea how the T'Pau Administration is being depicted, so take these comments with as much salt as required.)

[Christopher]

Has it occurred to anyone that assassinating T'Pau is obviously not a story option because she's still alive in "Amok Time" 112 years later?

[Mach5]

Christopher wrote:

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Has it occurred to anyone that assassinating T'Pau is obviously not a story option because she's still alive in "Amok Time" 112 years later?

The execution of the deed was, of course, not an option. But plotting was. Section 31 assigning reluctant Trip to do it could have brought in some serious drama into the book. He surely wouldn't be able go through with it (he's no killer), but... Such plot direction could have spawned some intense character moments.

[Christopher]

^I am staggered that you'd even suggest that assassination of a foreign leader would be an "option" for United Earth. That's not an option, it's a crime, and an obscene overreaction to a political difference of opinion. It's the sort of thing the Terran Empire or the Cardassians or the Romulans might do. United Earth is better than that.

[Sci]

Christopher wrote:

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^I am staggered that you'd even suggest that assassination of a foreign leader would be an "option" for United Earth. That's not an option, it's a crime, and an obscene overreaction to a political difference of opinion. It's the sort of thing the Terran Empire or the Cardassians or the Romulans might do. United Earth is better than that.

Exactly. For all that people are wondering how United Earth could trust its Coalition partners enough to create the Federation with them after the events of the first year of the war, how could they trust United Earth enough to found the Federation with it when U.E. considers assassinating their heads of government to be legitimate political tools?

ETA:

And anyway, let's bear in mind that Beneath the Raptor's Wing only focuses on the first year of the Earth-Romulan War. According to Destiny: Mere Mortals, IIRC, the war lasted until 2160. So we've got at least four years' of developments to go yet -- there's every possibility that Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar may do something extraordinary to redeem themselves in Earth's eyes yet.

William Leisner wrote:

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It's never a good idea to assume extremists are ever gone for good.

Quoted for truth.

I have no idea if Kuvak would succeed T'Pau or not -- and since it was T'Pau, rather than Kuvak, who ended up succeeding V'Las, I don't think we can make any assumptions about how the Vulcan government determines such things.

Well, we do know from Kobayashi Maru that T'Pau was for at least a time styled as First Minister of the Confederacy of Vulcan before being styled as Administrator in Beneath the Raptor's Wing.

If we take that as a standard First Minister in English political parlance -- that is, as another name for a Prime Minister -- then that means that the person who heads the faction that makes up the majority of members of the Vulcan legislature would become T'Pau's replacement were she to die. I don't think it's clear who T'Pau's second-in-command within the Syrrannite political faction.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ No character has actually done that, though, have they?

[Mach5]

Christopher wrote:

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^I am staggered that you'd even suggest that assassination of a foreign leader would be an "option" for United Earth.

Isn't that how Federation won the Dominion war? And, no, I'm not a right wing radical. I'm actually a lefty pacifist discussing a fun work of fiction, nothing more.

Christopher wrote:

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That's not an option, it's a crime, and an obscene overreaction to a political difference of opinion.

Don't you think that not honoring a mutual defense treaty is a lot more than just a political difference of opinion?

Christopher wrote:

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United Earth is better than that.

Oh, I don't know.. If Sisko could live with it...

[Christopher]

Mach5 wrote:

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Isn't that how Federation won the Dominion war?

Hardly. Odo ended the war by saving the lives of the Founders -- and, in the process, saving the Federation from committing an unforgivable crime in the name of fear.

Don't you think that not honoring a mutual defense treaty is a lot more than just a political difference of opinion?

Perhaps, but it absolutely does not justify murder. I mean, come on, why are we even discussing this???

[Sci]

Christopher wrote:

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Hardly. Odo ended the war by saving the lives of the Founders -- and, in the process, saving the Federation from committing an unforgivable crime in the name of fear.

Perhaps, but it absolutely does not justify murder. I mean, come on, why are we even discussing this???

Because modern American political culture is one in which all ideas are equal -- even ideas that are patently untruthful or offensive -- and all options are equally valid, even if they violate centuries of moral precepts.

[Mach5]

Christopher wrote:

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Hardly. Odo ended the war by saving the lives of the Founders -- and, in the process, saving the Federation from committing an unforgivable crime in the name of fear.

I was referring to the assassination of Senator Vreenak, without which the Romulans would never have joined the Federation against the Dominion.

Sisko could have done the right thing and charge Garak with murder, but he didn't, did he?

And he didn't do it out of fear of possible Romulan retaliation, but because Federation's survival was at stake, and something like that is worth much more than one man's clear conscience and peace of mind.

Christopher wrote:

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Perhaps, but it absolutely does not justify murder. I mean, come on, why are we even discussing this???

Were discussing justification of a murder?
I was merely arguing that a secret intelligence agency like Section 31 (United Earth's equivalent of CIA or Mossad) would have been expected to take such course of action into consideration.

[Christopher]

Mach5 wrote:

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I was referring to the assassination of Senator Vreenak, without which the Romulans would never have joined the Federation against the Dominion.

The Federation didn't do that, Garak did. And I disagree with your assumption. Just because that method succeeded in bringing the Romulans into the war, that doesn't mean it was the only method that could've succeeded. Such a statement is impossible to prove without testing every conceivable method, which is obviously not feasible unless you have access to an unlimited number of parallel timelines.

Besides, just because an evil act happened to have a relatively positive result in one case, that doesn't even remotely prove that the same evil act should be a viable option in every similar case.

Christopher wrote:

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I was merely arguing that a secret intelligence agency like Section 31 (United Earth's equivalent of CIA or Mossad) would have been expected to take such course of action into consideration.

And I find it bizarre that your thoughts went there. What T'Pau did was not the kind of act that would prompt that kind of discussion in any rational, non-evil organization. T'Pau didn't declare war against Earth, she just chose a different method of honoring her mutual-defense obligations than the one Earth would've preferred. You're blowing her actions absurdly out of proportion here.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Mach5 wrote:

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I was merely arguing that a secret intelligence agency like Section 31 (United Earth's equivalent of CIA or Mossad) would have been expected to take such course of action into consideration.

Section 31 is in no way equivalent to those organizations. The CIA and Mossad are legitimate intelligence gathering groups that have a clear chain of command and, more importantly, are accountable to their governments.

Earth does have its own such organization, it's called Starfleet Intelligence. THEY are the legitimate organization here, not a rogue cell like Section 31 which can, in the most absolute and literal sense, do whatever the hell it wants to.

[Mach5]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

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Section 31 is in no way equivalent to those organizations. The CIA and Mossad are legitimate intelligence gathering groups that have a clear chain of command and, more importantly, are accountable to their governments.

Earth does have its own such organization, it's called Starfleet Intelligence. THEY are the legitimate organization here, not a rogue cell like Section 31 which can, in the most absolute and literal sense, do whatever the hell it wants to.

Even more reason for 31 to contemplate any course of action, no matter how appalling.

[Christopher]

Again, I don't see any rational reason why even Section 31 would consider assassinating T'Pau in this case. It would be an insane overreaction and would do no good. Even the more corrupt S31 of the 24th century wouldn't risk an action of that magnitude unless they saw some genuine need for it, unless they saw T'Pau as a direct threat. That's not the case here. She's not attacking Earth. She's just defending it in a more passive way than they wanted. She's still an ally, even if an unreliable one. You don't murder your friends when they decline to cooperate with your wishes. You try to convince them to change their minds. Unless you're a complete sociopath. This whole assassination idea is just totally incongruous in this context. It comes out of nowhere and makes no sense. Have you even read the book?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Christopher wrote:

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You don't murder your friends when they decline to cooperate with your wishes. You try to convince them to change their minds. Unless you're a complete sociopath.

Sociopathic would be a pretty accurate way to describe Section 31, come to think of it.