ST:TMP - Lost Footage from the Trench

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by alchemist, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. Joe_Atari

    Joe_Atari Commander Red Shirt

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    It always bugged me that one of the Klingon ships was dispatched by V'ger offscreen in the final cut (and the DE for that matter). Knowing what I know now I'm guessing it was a cost or time saving move to avoid another elaborate "digitization" effect, but Abel test footage or even Abel-era script pages or storyboards might indicate how the sequence was supposed to play out.

    I know this thread is about footage, but is it me or isn't there a curious shortage of Abel / ASTRA storyboards that would show original V'ger designs, etc. and how they would appear from shot to shot in relation to Enterprise? I've seen the stuff compiled on the great OTTENS Forgotten Trek site, but that's mostly set design sketches and concept art, and of course we have Richard Taylor and David Negron's detailed recollections and descriptions. It would be great to be able to compare the storyboards and script pages for certain key sequences shot by shot; that along with dates and timelines could provide some fascinating insight into the troubled TMP production.
     
  2. QuasarVM

    QuasarVM Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I know for a fact Richard Taylor has a lot more than he gave me. In my 2001 interview with him he said he had books of storyboards for the film that Ed Verreaux illustrated. So, such boards exist...they just haven't seen print or the web yet.

    Maybe some, uh..."enterprising" person might try again to gain access to those?
     
  3. Psion

    Psion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm on it! I've got the black ski mask, black turtle neck, black pants, black grease paint for my face, white sneakers, and some rope. Does anyone have a crow bar?
     
  4. QuasarVM

    QuasarVM Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    :guffaw::guffaw::guffaw:

    Does your turtle neck have a starfleet delta on it? :lol:
     
  5. Maurice

    Maurice Snagglepussed Admiral

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    Sadly, you're incorrect. That never happened. I saw the film opening weekend and the torpedo firing was the same then as it is today. Apply Occam's Razor here: the film barely got finished (so to speak) as was...which is more likely" that they'd have changed the sequence as you suggest (requiring a different edit, different shots, and altered soundtrack), or that you're misremembering?

    Either that or you're remembering a trailer where they repeated the same closeup of the lead ship firing the first torpedo a few times.
     
  6. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    TGT bought a set of boards from Taylor a long time back, one that apparently was packed in storage somewhere. Do you know if that might be the Verreaux set?

    This really pisses me off. I interviewed Verreaux twice in the 90s, about CONTACT and MISSION TO MARS. I mentioned TREK in passing the first time, just to see if he had much to say about it, but if I knew he'd done THAT much work, I'd've lobbied a lot harder to see if he had any files. on M2M, he sent us two whole disks full of concept art for that movie, so it could be he is a hoarder. Lemme see if I can find some mag that might want to interview him ... if so, that'd justify a heavy-duty investigation.
     
  7. QuasarVM

    QuasarVM Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I had no idea Taylor sold any boards at all. That's news to me. If you go over to Forgotten Trek the 2001 interview is there....and you'll see RTs reference to the boards. I tried to get him to send them to me so I could take some digital photos of the pages, but always said "I'll dig them up after I do this or that..." but he never came through with the boards. He said they were bound in books. So, maybe TGT can clear up whether or not this is what he bought?

    I want to make clear: that's absolutely no criticism of RT -- I was ecstatic to get what he provided and he went above and beyond on that. But still...you know what they say happens when you give an inch....of course I wanted to get it all! LOL!!! Well, of course I did...any fan would! Taylor did say the boards were in storage...that I distinctly recall. At the time, he was going through a move, I believe and was not sure exactly where it was but knew he had it. However, I do remember him mentioning he was going to put some artwork up for auction for some Trek collectible thing that was going on. I just assumed it was stuff I had already seen.

    Oh well...why doesn't TGT cough up the goods? If he's bought something...why not share it with the fans?

    Verreaux worked for Abel, so I assume he was no longer working on Trek after they were dismissed (unlike David Negron). I get tired of people mixing Abel stuff with Trumbull/Dykstra stuff...and even worse, mixing Mike Minor's work with ALL of it! :rolleyes: Taylor was very complimentary of Verreaux's work on Trek and talked about how great the art was. What I originally wanted to do, was get ALL the artwork for the film out there (Maybe eventually in book form) -- storyboards, concept art, set blueprints, props...all of it. And then sort through it all and separate out who worked on what and at what point in the film's production.

    As I said, there's a lot of misperceptions of who did what...and when. So, what I wanted to see (either on the web or in a coffee-table book -- a' la the hardback books on ILM that came out during the late 80's) was a Paramount-sanctioned book called "Star Trek: The Motion Picture -- Designing the Future" or "Star Trek: Parallel Visions". It would have been a definitive and ACCURATE book/website on the subject of the alternate production design and artwork resulting from that. Unlike The Art of Star Trek, this would focus on the early and unseen Trek productions -- and Star Trek:The Motion Picture. And you know, I really don't care WHO ends up doing it, but I think it would be a worthwhile book. Optionally, the first chapter could be on Planet of the Titans and there could be a Phase II chapter as well featuring the art of Mike Minor (because I believe there's a lot more of his artwork from ST:PII that we have not seen; storyboards for example that I saw hanging up on a wall in Minor's studio in an issue of Starlog that has never been released to the public).

    Then again, maybe Simon and Schuster would balk at it and say there's not enough interest. The way I envisioned it, it would not be a cheap book. Hardback for sure.

    Anyway, I digress. I don't see why anyone would hoard this stuff. It should be shared with the fans...and trust me, every stitch of art I have ever gotten my hands on I have put out there for viewing (with the artist's permission of course!) or given to Nick Ottens to put on his site.

    An interview with Verreaux would be coup (and not just with regard to his Trek work) -- second only to an interview with Con Pederson (who flat out ignored all attempts at a Trek interview). Verreaux may not have had any of the boards though. I got the impression Taylor had them. However, I could be wrong...no way to know for sure without asking one of the parties involved.

    The last time I tried to talk to RT, he said he'd get right back to me...and never did. So...I don't know. Any efforts to pursue any outstanding artwork will have to be done by another fan...not I.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2009
  8. ncc-1017-e

    ncc-1017-e Captain Captain

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    Sorry dude you are incorrect This was not in the film in the theaters and I was at the opening of TMP! The footage I saw of the klingon ship were in a advertisement or a news broadcast I am not sure which! All I know is what I saw. I am a photojournalist by trade, and so I have a photographic memory when it comes to film, video and stills. The shot I saw was a side view of all three ships from the closest one in the foreground and the last one be the furtherest from the camera angle. From that angle each one fired a single torpedo! Thats it! As I said before I know I saw this shot! Also as we all know there was alot of extra footage from TMP that was not included in the special features in STTMPTDE.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2009
  9. Maurice

    Maurice Snagglepussed Admiral

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    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Since you can't provide any, I'm going to stick with Occam's Razor. Have fun.
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I'd say that's pretty much a certainty. Heavily illustrated nonfiction books are very expensive to produce and don't sell well enough to be worth it, especially now that so much artwork and behind-the-scenes or technical info is available online. That's why Pocket has published so few nonfiction Trek books in recent years.


    As for ncc-1017-e's claim about the Klingon ship footage in an advertisement... the DVD of the Director's Edition includes just about all the trailers and commercials for the film, so it would be possible to check those and see if any such image of the 3 battlecruisers firing is present.

    And DS9Sega has a good point. The film was released with its FX work unfinished, so it's unlikely that there'd be completed opticals that aren't in the film.
     
  11. QuasarVM

    QuasarVM Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, then someone will have to put the rest of it online...:lol: Whatever. It. Takes.

    And...is it just me or is DS9Sega sounding more and more like Carl Sagan these days? :guffaw::guffaw::guffaw:

    I met Mr. Sagan once. We debated the existence of UFOs as extraterrestrial craft. He won. I lost...I'll never forget it. He owned me.

    Serious fact. Serious as a heart attack.
     
  12. cardinal biggles

    cardinal biggles A GODDAMN DELIGHT Moderator

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    Which side of the argument were you on?
     
  13. QuasarVM

    QuasarVM Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Pro-UFO. Well, more like open-minded about it...playing devil's advocate. I am not a true believer. Can't be one of those until I see one myself.

    Seeing is believing. Or as the new X-Files slogan went "I want to believe"...

    Anyway, I went home and cried like a little girl cos he mopped up that bookstore with me -- and then kicked me out the door with his vastly superior intellect.

    I mean, it was no contest. :lol:

    Ok, I'm exaggerating a little. Not much, but a little.
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Yeah, Sagan's writings were among those that helped me outgrow my childhood credulity about UFO mythology.
     
  15. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    That sounds like a big hunk of my book proposal for ART OF STAR TREK, from back in 91-92. What I pitched was a TOS only volume that went from CAGE thru TUC, but did it in a progression for each environment, so you'd see the evolution of the bridge (WITH PLENTY OF SUPPORTING TEXT FROM THE DESIGNERS) from Guzman/Jeffries to Zimmerman painting over himself in TFF/TUC. Sometime maybe I can show you the mockup of the outline and proposal I sent to Ryan at Pocket after he expressed verbal interest, it is pretty huge (there's probably nearly as much text just in my proposal as in what Pocket wound up publishing in their whole ... book a couple years later, which is obviously 180 from what I was going for.) They never acknowledged receiving the submission, which is kind of funny since I still have the return receipt acknowledgement for the package.

    I really wanted to show how design evolves from a showbiz perspective as well as an engineer/designer perspective, and just the visual progression on these designs from decade to decade and tech advance to tech advance really pointed this up. Plus it'd've been the last chance to talk to most of these folks, since except for Minor, nearly all of the principals were alive in the early 90s. Another lost opportunity.
     
  16. ncc-1017-e

    ncc-1017-e Captain Captain

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    Well now if I had evidence there would not be anything to talk about! I wish I had some believe me! There is no skin off my ass if you guys don't want to believe me! I just thought I would relay some information on my observations of that time in trek history. You bitches have fun.
     
  17. QuasarVM

    QuasarVM Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sounds really good, Trev! I wish someone would publish such a book, but as Christopher points out...realistically, I'm not sure they would. But, on the other hand -- nothing ventured, nothing gained -- right?

    Your book sounds interesting, but the idea I had was more of a presentation -- in chronological order -- of the various phases of design and the artists who worked on Star Trek for each phase during the 70's.

    Really if anyone is going to do something like this, then now is the time. We like to think we have forever to get the experiences of these artists in some kind of printed account and, of course, we really don't. There's no telling what was lost when Mike Minor passed away. I never saw any definitive interviews with him (I think maybe Starlog did one and then, later, Enterprise Incidents but I don't remember many others) -- and certainly not any that had ALL of his artwork presented. As I said, in the interview in Starlog there was ton of artwork hanging on Minor's studio wall that I've never seen anywhere but from what I could tell, it looked like storyboards of the Enterprise being pulled into the V'ger maw for In Thy Image. The design of V'ger was consistent with Minor's version...which is posted over at Forgotten Trek.

    I am sure time is running out on interviewing all the guys from Abel as well. I never really had any interest in talking to any of the guys from Trumbull or Apogee because their account of the TMP days were so well covered by Cinefex and others. Actually, I thought Cinefex #1 was the ultimate coverage of the effects of TMP from Trumbull/Dykstra's perspective.

    The Art of Star Trek was a nice book, but it should have been nearly as many pages as the books on ILM given how much artwork was left out of it. Or at the very least, we should have gotten another volume. They didn't even talk to Taylor or Negron or any of the Abel people for that.
     
  18. QuasarVM

    QuasarVM Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This bitch has never seen what you describe...not to say you didn't see it...

    What I did see somewhere...and I don't remember where now (it was on TV in '79), was a short clip of the San Francisco Air Tram flying overhead in an unused FX shot.
     
  19. ncc-1017-e

    ncc-1017-e Captain Captain

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    ^ Thank you, and yes I saw and remember that shot back then as well!
     
  20. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    That's in the TMP promo reel, something i have on Super8 film. Some folks on the board here were interested in getting it scanned and copied to DVD, but the cost is just really prohibitive for a really high quality job. When that situation changes, I'll let people know.

    Oh, and the marionettes guy Minor worked with on IN THY IMAGE (pre Abel), Bob Baker I think, he talked to Ross Plesset in FILMFAX about Minor's artwork. Apparently all of that stuff got stolen or lost during the 80s, including the various puppets that were going to invade the ship before Abel turned it into the light probe. Idea was to have a these puppets shot through ghost glass, and coated with UV paint, so they'd pulse and throb into blacklight colors and back to normal as they checked out the ship and crew. Very in-camera way to work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2009