@137th Gebirg Good eye on both, thank you! That actually reminds me, I used to think this scene during the Khitomer battle in TUC was aboard Excelsior: It very obviously is not now (and admittedly doesn't make much sense on my part in hindsight) but one has to think the Excelsior engine room probably looked about the same. It looks like they also omitted the wall plugs for the second corridor, which I hadn't realized until just now.
I agree it's a redress of the VOY set (nicely spotted!) but I think it utilises the seldom used octagonal section in order to disguise this further: There's a glimpse of the angled wall in the clip you posted (the wall has the light on it) and the corridor seen through the door is unusually narrow (clearly they just put a spare wall panel up for the scene). Finally, it's a very large, open space and this arrangement of the rooms certainly fits the bill for that!
I think you just inadvertently solved the question of what happened to transwarp drive: It could be that the tech did not have to fail, but when a "regular" warp core was tried out in the same space during testing, the added cooling from the "fins" in the neck, nacelles and "bulge" made warp drive just as effective in getting certain speeds. The Ambassador and Galaxy have limited fins in the neck, but they still have fins in their nacelles, as do most other newer ships. That would also explain why Voyager was able to have Paris break the barrier so easily, it was not the tech that needed developed from scratch, but adapting it to a shuttle and tying to get even more speed out of it to approach warp 10. I think that the version of the ship with two deflection crystals should have two cores, because otherwise there would need to be a system at the "split point" where the energy is sent to one crystal or the other (This is unlike the Constellation-class which has two crystals at different ends of the impulse section. In that case I think the warp core is mounted transversely, going from one crystal to the other. I had some way of explaining the vertical core section in the Hathaway, that is not important now.) Why couldn't this scene be on the Excelsior and the monitor was showing the status of the allied ship (NCC-1701-A)? The warp core placard in the hall could be what is showing Excelsior's status, and it would not need to be on two monitors at once. A problem in continuity is exactly what that placard shows. It was made for Leah Brahm's lab. Leah refers to it as the "engine" she designed. We know that some of the Wolf-359 ships had TNG-style nacelles, but lower numbers, implying older ships, so Leah must have designed the TNG warp core, not the TNG nacelles. That means that showing that core on NCC-1701-A or NCC-2000 appears to be a problem with timing. The only solution I can think of is that the external appearance of the core in the 2290's is the same, but Dr. Brahms developed or changed something about the internal reaction chamber. Otherwise, it would not make sense to have this core, and especial not this placard, on either ship in ST:6.
It was the TMP/TWOK Enterprise engine room with the computer props removed. You can see the TSFS turbolift door that Scotty walks to in this shot in TWOK where the computer prop at the far wall partially obscures it. You can also see part of the door in TMP on the left in this scene.
IIRC, the engine room was pretty bare in TMP, for WoK they rented loads of generic computers from Modern Props and stuck them in there. Didn't realise they blocked the turbolifts, though
I'd like to imagine on the Enterprise that was an access door to some other seldom serviced part of engineering and the cadets partially blocked it because that is where they shoved all the junk they didn't want Kirk to see during the inspection. But on the Excelsior that happens to be a turbolift.
Good eye! I think you're exactly right. Ironically, this would be the same part of the set (through rebuilt in the interim) that served as the crew cabin where Crewman Dax was interrogated in ST: TUC. Aha! Thank you so much. I didn't remember that door existed at all. The stark look of the set in TSFS really threw me and led me to to wonder if it was the second floor, but that didn't make a ton of sense. A quick glance at my copy of "Mr. Scott's Guide" shows that Lora depicts this door as access to a spare parts storage room, so maybe it's okay that it's partly blocked. So @blssdwlf you're right. I'm glad to find this post originated in this thread; I had seen you repost in the other thread and was deliberating responding there and derailing it. I think I generally agree with your point, and have tried to depict this in my writeup; it was a soft fail that ended up pioneering a new generation of technology. At the risk of quoting myself: (You can find the whole thing in context on my site here.) You're referring to the fins on the Excelsior and Ambassador necks, I think? I'm not sure where the fins on the Galaxy would be. The little compression rings behind the Bussard endcaps, maybe? I have always assumed the neck fins to be some kind of intercooler/heat sink. I've always assumed that there would be a split point for the dual deflection crystals; with a TNG warp core, the power conduit also will likely have to come from way down on Deck 13. I've historically assumed that there was a flaw with the larger single deflection crystal which required there to be two smaller ones instead. In the real world this was likely another attempt by ILM to make the ship seem even larger, which goes along with the explanation of the smaller bridge module changed for TUC. For what it's worth, @Rekkert has IMO a really good explanation for the Constellation over on his site; Starfleet tried twin warp cores but it proved overly complicated and eventually the conventional setup won out. For me, this works really well as it addresses a couple key points. First, that NX-1974 was still undergoing trial runs in 2293 per graphics in TUC. Second, that Stargazer was said by Picard to be an "overworked and underpowered vessel" owing to having four engines powered by a single core. Of course, all of this really could diverge into a side conversation about what a deflection crystal actually is. Over the years I have come to look at it as more than a simple power transfer junction, and more of an augmentation of the impulse system. It "deflects" a low power symmetric warp field to lower the ship's mass and move it more easily at sublight speeds. Your mileage may vary. I think there's actually a somewhat relevant precedent for this, in how the TMP "swirl core" was resurrected (albeit in a non-identical form) for Voyager. It appears that the TMP "swirl" core skipped a generation, so I don't see why the TNG core couldn't do the same? The transwarp project invents the TNG-style core and it is later perfected for the Galaxy class. We can also squint and assume that the TUC and TNG cores aren't completely identical, and as you say the innards may be quite different. I've been working on my deck plans a bit, working my way down through the engineering hull. But, I've fallen down a bit of a rabbit hole analyzing set usage and changes. I started out trying to analyze the reuses and redresses of sets for TUC, which led me to re-read @Donny's thread and his excellent work. Funny enough, there was a decent discussion in this thread about which type of warp core the Enterprise-A should have which felt all too familiar. I was able to reconfirm the split in the crew quarters set for that film, and also discovered that the Sutherland bridge started out life as the Enterprise-A's galley set. This makes tons of sense, since TUC was filmed between "Redemption I" and "Redemption II" on the TNG sets. It looks like the set was positioned opposite the transporter room, where Counselor Troi's office often was, along with a number of swing sets, and later on Voyager's science labs would be built. I plan to do some more study on this, but this may solve a bit of a problem for me. On TNG, the battle bridge set was often used for various rooms on the Enterprise-D but this has never seemed practical for use on Excelsior, and I kind of despise the science lab set featured in episodes like "Suspicions" which seems to have been cobbled together from various other sets. So, I may be able to use the Sutherland bridge in its galley form as a sort of swing set for various Excelsior labs and work rooms. I should mention that I don't consider my work here incompatible with @Rekkert's beautiful work on the Potemkin; he's showing a ship in its TNG-era configuration whereas I'm showing it in 2290 configuration. Anyhoo, I hope to have something visual for you a bit later. More to come!
The description on my site for the Constellation was also an attempt on my part to explain the Hathaway having a "traditional" warp core in TNG:"Peak Performance", with a vertical arrangement and two power conduits leading at an angle, despite this not matching at all with the external arrangement of the class. Also, for what its worth, I never considered the "deflection crystals" necessarily tied to the M/AM reactor, but rather just the impulse systems. Again, the Hathaway is a good example of this, as is the Miranda class in my opinion, as well as the TUC-era Shangri-La class which was made canon in Picard.
@Rekkert Thank you! I think it's a great explanation. For me, if the deflection crystals were damaged or offline the ship could still go to warp but couldn't use impulse so I think we are generally in agreement there. I did a quick analysis of some TUC screencaps versus the Sutherland bridge and wanted to share. It seems that the set was relocated and rebuilt into the Sutherland bridge after TUC, as the raised platforms, forward side doors and viewscreen are all missing. Interestingly, looking at the height of Valeris versus the wall behind her, it seems that the entire rear section was lifted up when the raised platforms were built. The horizontal rectangle above the phaser case is far too low compared to Ms. Cattrall, even at 5'7" tall.
I'd never noticed the similarities between the ST6 galley and the bridge of the Sutherland! It seems clear that several set pieces were reused, at least. Here's the original plan of the galley for reference:
@Mytran You're awesome, I was just starting to hunt for something like that. Thank you! Seeing that and comparing it to the overhead view of the Sutherland bridge, it's not really the same set as the "shelf" walls are angled quite differently. I'd also say that the area that Uhura and the guards come through that becomes the back of the bridge has been widened when it becomes the bridge. But, it's obviously where the Sutherland bridge started and works well with that. I could easily see this room as being a basic room that could be configured for various work purposes.
Do we how accurate that overhead view of the Sutherland is? It looks like one of the designs from the Star Trek Magazine which frequently took liberties. Indeed, from the scene on Youtube (below) it seems that the turbolift enters from is on the opposite side of the room! Perhaps the walls are also angled differently?
A quick deck plans update for today as I continue to work my way through the secondary hull: I've added some turboshafts, after deciding to go with my revised Deck 13. (I still need to adjust the turboshafts in the interhull to match.) Two foreward turboshafts extend downward on either side of the deflector dish cut-in, which is probably how Captain Kirk would have gotten to deflector control. I've decided to remove the phaser from the humpback, deciding this is likely a Lakota exclusive weapon location, and instead added four banks to the upper fantail above Shuttlebay One. While the model didn't have these, the official MSD and many official drawings do, and it matches the refit Enterprise pretty well. This fits into my notion of modelling the "real" ship here instead of one of the filming miniatures. I've also roughed in the wall for the inner part of Shuttlebay Two in the secondary hull chasm. My general plan for this area is as below: 1) Upper Landing Deck will be used primarily for Executive-class shuttles, including maintenance 2) Lower Landing Deck will be used for Type-4 shuttles, travel pods and visiting craft 3) Maintenance will be used for Type-4 shuttles and travel pods 4) Twin elevators will allow for movement of most craft between levels, and up to the cargo bays 5) Workbees will be stored primarily in the cargo bays, with recharge points I need to scale all of the craft to make sure they fit as intended. I hope to maintain the open bay docking for the Executive-class shuttles, although they will have to be larger than was depicted on the filming miniature. Also not shown here is the "grabber" that is prominent in the open bay. I suspect that once the Executive shuttle is scaled it will be entirely too large to fit into the upper bay, so I may rejig the uses of each area a bit. I'm also going to try to work in the "cargo conveyor" depicted in the Enterprise-B MSD from "Generations" to connect Shuttlebay One with the cargo bays. It seems a bit excessive perhaps, especially when there's access from Shuttlebay Two, the dorsal engineering hull, and transporters but I'm thinking that extensive cargo and shuttle facilities are one of the class's competitive advantages. I was concerned that there wouldn't be enough room in the engineering hull for workshops and the like but as I've gone on I no longer have many concerns about this. Workshops will likely be what are behind most of the engineering hull windows along with some crew lounges and similar work areas as well as a few engineering crew standby quarters. I need to continue reviewing sets and large hardware based on external features. I've decided that the large blue marks on the bottom of the engineering hull represent ventral sensor platforms, so there will be a bit of area dedicated to that hardware too. A big thank you to everyone following and participating in this thread. It's awesome to finally be getting somewhere with this project after I've spent so long researching and thinking about it. More to come, following an eye-straining viewing of "Redemption II."
I feel very bad for the lower decks crew that has to clean up that open bay every time the Excelsior hung out inside a nebula or giant space ameoba. At least Kirk's Enterprise had the good sense to keep their bays closed Did we ever see the 2nd power conduit? IIRC, the episode only shows the one in your screenshot, right?
Not directly, but we do see the yellow light coming off of that power conduit, it's very noticeable when Geordi first enters engineering and the lights are off. And it was there on the set construction blueprints.
As @Mytran observed watching "Redemption II" isn't super helpful due to the tight shots. However, I started noticing something interesting. Check out the below image: Data is facing forward, with Hobson to port, and the wall behind him seems to very obviously slant outward rather than inward as the previously posted erroneous plans would suggest. To me, this indicates and even greater likelihood that the galley set was less changed than previously thought. Data's command chair would be just to the right of the "A" indicator above, with Hobson and his console just to the right of this, where the prep table is above. It's likely that the doors were simply added to the walls behind the "pipes" which I think can be supported by the fact that Data enters on the port (right) side of the set, where there would be clearance to use the door. I didn't notice anyone entering through the other door in the episode. The viewscreen would then be added where the corridor door was. Based on that, I've come up with the following alternate configuration: I believe this generally fits with what we see in the following screenshots: Please pick it apart.
I've been doing research and wanted to share this set of excellent images of the original Excelsior filming model. I found these some time ago on TrekCollective and they were instrumental back when I was scaling the model and continue to help with my analysis and deck plans now. I'm still struck by just how beautiful this miniature is/was. Many of you have probably seen them, but if not and you're following this thread you'll probably want to. Enjoy.
Just a small update for today: I've mostly been working on adding hardware placements, including: deflection crystals lifeboats thruster rooms landing feet bays warp nacelles photon torpedo launchers and magazines deflector I also changed Shuttlebay One to not follow the model kit and to just have a wall at the back of the bay, which I think makes much more sense and affords much more space. I should mention that there will be more lifeboats than the ones above; these just follow the Enteprise-B MSD's callouts. The design of the lifeboats themselves is TBD, though I'm leaning towards somewhat following the "Mr. Scott's Guide" design. Next, I'm going to continue filling in hardware and roughing in spaces, probably focused on shuttlecraft scaling and Shuttlebay Two next. I should mention that most of rooms and hardware that I have in place are placeholders and will be refined with time. I've created them as symbols in Illustrator so I can change one and change them all in one go, a trick which has proven handy in MSDs and other work I've done. Feedback as always is welcome. More to come!